golden oldie 102

You can talk about almost anything here

Moderators: John@sos, charlesp, Charles uk, RickUK, Petergalileo

headdownarseup
Posts: 2484
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:26 pm
Location: bristol

golden oldie 102

Post by headdownarseup »

hello all, picked this one up a few weeks ago. nice (almost) original 102 from 1947/8
from previous discussions, the early 102 "core plug/welch plug" came in for a lot of talk. some saying that it was a plumbing fitting, and others saying that it was a "modification"
shame on you! with special thanks to JAN, he has confirmed from some of his collection that pre 1950 102's did indeed have the hex head coreplug and slightly later ones having the slotted type, thereafter the "normal" pressed in type.
so, we have AC3392 (use the engine identifier to confirm its age)

the following photos i've taken of the motor show 5 things that are not "time period correct" for this 102. can you spot them?
this should be treated as a visual exercise and an opportunity to do some research from the main site and the owners forum.

by the way, the motor runs like a clock! at the moment its had nothing more than a sympathetic restoration
waterjacket clean, piston and rings have been cleaned, bore lightly honed, gearbox stripped and cleaned and the block painted.
the tank will get done in time but i like it the way it is for now.

now, lets see if you can spot those 5 things that are NOT RIGHT for this 102
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
headdownarseup
Posts: 2484
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:26 pm
Location: bristol

Re: golden oldie 102

Post by headdownarseup »

and some more pics
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
Oyster 49
Posts: 3195
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:55 pm
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: golden oldie 102

Post by Oyster 49 »

Inlet is wrong (Choke should not be fitted.
Wrong transom bracket, or at least the clamps.
Suspect wrong rope pulley.
Entire bottom end could be wrong, including prop. Nippled gearbox is from a slightly earlier engine perhaps.
Quite possibly the tank should be screw on cap for that year...1948?
headdownarseup
Posts: 2484
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:26 pm
Location: bristol

Re: golden oldie 102

Post by headdownarseup »

you've got 2 right so far!

wrong inlet (should be "seagull" with NO CHOKE)
half correct with the transom clamps? its got the bronze main section of the mounting but the wrong "holey" c clamps.
from records (on the main site) it should have the clamps that we usually end up putting on SD's etc. when we cant get hold of a skeletal bracket. :D

there's more "wrongs" just look a bit harder :D

jon
Horsley-Anarak
Posts: 2788
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:42 pm
Location: Surrey

Re: golden oldie 102

Post by Horsley-Anarak »

wrong magneto base
Wrong throttle lever ( should have Amal stamped on it)
Wrong plug cap, should be a short one.

Wrong ht lead end.

H-A
headdownarseup
Posts: 2484
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:26 pm
Location: bristol

Re: golden oldie 102

Post by headdownarseup »

H-A
i'll be honest and say i'm not sure about the plug cap? (yet)
mag base is wrong (this is a much later magneto from the 50's) but its how it came to me, it'll get put right in time, dont worry i dont like em either!



spot on with the thumb throttle :D



thats 4 so far between you


1 more? (i think)

jon
User avatar
Jan
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 4:45 pm
Location: Zaanstad, The Netherlands

Re: golden oldie 102

Post by Jan »

Flywheel?

Can you find a date stamp under the cover on the flywheel?

Jan
Adrian Dale
Posts: 758
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:58 am
Location: Tasmania, Australia

Re: golden oldie 102

Post by Adrian Dale »

Fuel pipe should be coiled

AJ
User avatar
Charles uk
Posts: 4812
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:38 pm
Location: Maidenhead Berks UK

Re: golden oldie 102

Post by Charles uk »

I have 2 AC's 1 a little earlier & 1 3k later both with slotted brass "core plugs" both with grease nipple gearboxes & bow tie props, both with Amal marked throttle levers the, 6*** one was in such original condition that the fuel tank logo was used as the artwork for the cloned tank transfer as it had worn a tank guard for most if not all of it's life.

More than 10 years ago, I think it was me that introduced CharlesP to Seagull's last production manager, a gentleman past retirement age who'd spent all of his working life except for 2 years National Service at Seagull, & he taught both of us, most of what we know about the Seagull way, if fact it was him that showed me the first King Dick offset spanner & explained how essential it was.

Starting me off on the quest to find some, I managed to buy a total of 500+ that had come by a long route from the MOD, that were destined to see out their days as part of a Triumph tool kit. That one in your tool box probably came from those brown card boxes if you have one, if you don't, contact John he still has a few left.

CharlesP chose to concentrate his researches on the 40 + years of the classic Seagulls & I on anything with a CDI ignition from the 125/170 to the Seagull sport, as it was racing that rocked my boat, at around that point, I bought my first Marston opening a whole new direction for my obsessional researching.

The point of this was that we were told a story about core plugs finding a new job as oil filler plugs, not the other way around.
CharlesP kept all the data including mine on this era, so he should be the one that can give a definative answer.

I hate to say it Jon, but that might well fall into the classification of a Bitsa.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
User avatar
Oyster 49
Posts: 3195
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:55 pm
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: golden oldie 102

Post by Oyster 49 »

Fuel pipe should certainly not be coiled.

"Bitsa" Love it LOL! :lol: :lol:
headdownarseup
Posts: 2484
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:26 pm
Location: bristol

Re: golden oldie 102

Post by headdownarseup »

right, hold on gents, one at a time!
JAN, yes the magneto and flywheel are much later (looks to be from the mid 50's and there are no numbers at all on the flywheel, i've looked)
as far as i can tell it should have (correct me if i'm wrong) what we regard as a "flange type" similar to the coolie hat magneto baseplate.

CHARLES
didn't we have this discussion a little while back with my other "golden oldie 102" D9666
hex head core plugs (according to JAN) are earlier than slotted type!
the bow tie prop (according to the other CHARLES) was introduced with the "sub ejector pump housing
as this motor is pre 1950 (again according to JAN) nippled gearbox and SD style prop would seem to be right for the age of this one?

have a look back through D9666 restoration at around page 4 and see. this is where things start to get interesting.
there's even a very nice advert in black and white, blow it up and have a look at what you can see of the serial number, its not quite clear but you can see AC3*** ?
(thanks to SKYETOYMAN for sending that one in)
very similar to what i have here (if not the same)

based on the advert at least, i can work out the magneto is wrong, the thumb throttle is wrong, the mounting clamps are wrong, the tilt bracket is wrong, and the obvious one is the inlet cowl?
dont forget that photo shopping wasn't invented in the late 40's so the pictures are exactly what you see.

from just stripping this one down the other week, the internals of AC3392 are as good as i've seen. even the gears in the gearbox are very nearly "mint".
apart from the usual rust/corrosion on the leg and inside the waterjacket, it doesn't look as though its done many hours. sure, there's one or two bits that have been swapped about over the years, but show me one that's been used that hasn't had a few running repairs along the way.
i think a lot depends on how the motor has been stored or laid up as to whether bits get broken or bashed when its not being used. possibly why so many things get changed over the years. its all detective work really trying to sort out someone else's "repairs/fixes"
i just like them to be as close as possible as if it left the workshop assembly line only yesterday. (sometimes more difficult than you think)

this is where the discussions come into play. without the feedback from others on here in particular the 2 CHARLES's, where would we be?
STUCK

i do hope i havn't stepped on anyones toes with this one!
but we can sometimes be wrong, can't we?

as always,any feedback is welcomed with me, its how we all learn after all.

jon
User avatar
charlesp
Posts: 2565
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:37 pm
Location: Poole, Dorset, England

Re: golden oldie 102

Post by charlesp »

I reckon the other Charles is right - it's a bitsa.

I don't think the gearbox end cap, water pump housing, prop, bracket, tank, tank supports, magneto and air intake originally belonged to this motor. I am uncertain about the gearbox itself and the block too. I need to have a think about them.

And you know my thoughts about the core plugs. I too have a number of early 102's, and in similar fashion to the other Charles they all have the slotted plug. Part of early "Star Interchangeability". The other Charles and I discussed this ages ago - a motor had turned up with hexagonal plugs - and we asked the question of the old boys at the factory. Their answer was quite unmistakeable - the slotted plugs were what was fitted. The factory workshops used those plumbing fittings in the latter days when they had run out of the originals. I have been to that same plumbers' merchant in Poole to buy some to replace slotted ones with bitched heads.

I can't give you an answer at all about various motors that have hex plugs with a very fine thread; I would have thought that thread way too fine for its purpose cut into cast iron to be used in warm salt water, but no reference remains that I have seen.

Another thing that I have discussed with the other Charles is the sheer unreliability of Seagull advertising photographs and drawings. They are notorious!
User avatar
Jan
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 4:45 pm
Location: Zaanstad, The Netherlands

Re: golden oldie 102

Post by Jan »

Some photos of AC1597L as I found it 10 years ago.
image.jpg
image.jpg
image.jpg
image.jpg
image.jpg
jan
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
Jan
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 4:45 pm
Location: Zaanstad, The Netherlands

Re: golden oldie 102

Post by Jan »

image.jpg
image.jpg
image.jpg
image.jpg
Jan
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
Charles uk
Posts: 4812
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:38 pm
Location: Maidenhead Berks UK

Re: golden oldie 102

Post by Charles uk »

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the C & D model 102s change to a sub ejector exhaust before the AC & AD were produced?

Jan does your AC have the extra long pinion gear shaft & the support cotton reel bearing the same as the SDs?

In Holland where spares don't grow on trees, I don't think it suprising that any part that will do the job will get used over the last 65 years.

I'm sure Seagull used old artwork in their adverts just to prevent us being sure of when they made changes.

What does the A in AC & AD signify?
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
Post Reply