data on 102 motors

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headdownarseup
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Re: data on 102 motors

Post by headdownarseup »

i doubt it B?
The magneto that comes after the last one has a 3/4 rim on it. (still attached to a motor at the moment)
When the flywheel is in place, the "rim" only sticks out less than 1/4" so its almost useless as being a throttle cable guard?

i'm not entirely sure that this "rim" actually serves any purpose.
If nothing else,it probably helps identify an ignition's "age" just by sight.
More than likely the same on smaller motors of similar age as well?

Other than the mk1 villiers having a slightly different radius to the flywheel and a brass points box, there is very little ACTUAL difference between all 4 types of villiers.
The only OBVIOUS "difference" (if you can call it that) on the flywheels is how they were finished. Early (mk1 and slighly later "rimless") flywheels had a smoother finish to the "spokes" whereas the later ones were left ROUGH CAST finish.A lot of flywheels were also date stamped (by villiers) to show a production date when the ignition was manufactured. (and not when the motor was put together, although probably within a month or two of the flywheel date)

jon
Keith.P
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Re: data on 102 motors

Post by Keith.P »

I would agree with C.I, it sounds right about protecting the throttle cable, isn't the cable on the right of the motor, just a little extra protection, as it wouldn't have been added without a purpose, My FVP will rub down the throttle cable outer sheath if I'm not careful, so I can understand the add-on.
Maybe not such of a problem with the bigger motors, but I bet it was with the smaller models before this addition.
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Hugz
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Re: data on 102 motors

Post by Hugz »

TC 83504 Has the 3rd base plate with half rim.
AD12329 Has the 1st plate with the large flange.

Others are packed away at this stage.
headdownarseup
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Re: data on 102 motors

Post by headdownarseup »

Still not sure this "rim" would ever have been anything like a throttle cable guard!
Throttle cables very often get kinked/bent out of shape (particularly when the motor has been stored with the tiller pointing downwards!) whether by accident or otherwise.

The "rim" would end up in a different position if the magneto were to be "swapped" from a 40 to a 100 motor and vice versa.
The last villiers in the series has got a 3/4 "rim" so wouldn't matter at all where it was! (same on the gold top wipac)

Why do the earlier villiers have NO RIM?
Why do the later villiers have either a 1/2 round or 3/4 round rim?
I dont reckon the "rim" has got anything to do with protecting the throttle cable.
Provided your thumb throttle has been correctly positioned on the tiller, there should be ample room for the cable to move around.

Even with a very tired cable that's all bent out of shape, it will still rub on the flywheel to some degree.


My suggestion was as a means of identifying an ignition's "age". whether this is correct or not remains to be seen.
Why would VILLIERS design and develop an ignition system firstly without a "rim" (e.g. coolie hat as per SD's etc.) and then decide to add a "rim" at a later point in production?

i think this "rim" was added as a means of strengthening the baseplate. (but why either 1/2 or 3/4 )
Whether it turned out to be effective at keeping the throttle cable away from the flywheel was probably down to luck rather than design.

For this rim to actually be effective as a guard, it would have to be at least the depth of the flywheel's height, and only on the carb side, different one for 40 or 100 motor, so that VILLIERS would have to produce 2 ignitions that were model specific.
I cant see BS doing that somehow?

jon
Keith.P
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Re: data on 102 motors

Post by Keith.P »

I can not see that a stator plate would need strengthening as its under no load what so ever, as for older ignitions having no rim, lower longer tiller and the flywheel sat higher, then first 40 had a fixed tiller, still no problem and no rim.
If the cable was not seen as an issue, why the cable holder on the later tillers that just ends up kinking and bending the cable anyway.
Why do some later wypac plates have a cut out on the rim above the amal carb float chamber, luck rather than design then, the 40 and 100 have different position settings, so still end up protecting the tiller side as the tiller is able to moving not the carb, the sharpest edge of a flywheel is the bottom edge, its a guard, but not to health and safety standards.
carry on.
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Rob Ripley
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Re: data on 102 motors

Post by Rob Ripley »

Were the stator plates used on other (non Seagull) motors ?
headdownarseup
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Re: data on 102 motors

Post by headdownarseup »

These villiers stator plates are almost identical to those fitted to various lawnmowers,small motorcycles,agricultural machinery etc. (allowing for certain design and application alterations)

Another though that i had about this "rim" could have been to aid cooling of the baseplate.
When attached to a seagull, they do get quite warm, especially when at WOT for a long time.
I would think that a certain amount of air cooling would be beneficial for the ignition parts.
It must do something this "rim".
Whether it is some form of strengthening or throttle cable guard or to aid cooling somehow ------------who knows!

But it's there on most of them? (villiers or wipac points ignition)

CDI ignitions are different again!
Interesting that BS started with no rim, then decided to add a bit, then a bit more? (why)

Just an observation that's all really.

I still like the idea of being able to "date" an ignition to a time period.
Moving through the natural development of these motors, BS must have known what they were doing with regards to constantly improving the smallest thing.
The addition of a rim to the baseplate might well be evidence of this.


jon
headdownarseup
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Re: data on 102 motors

Post by headdownarseup »

2 more "additions" to my flock will be arriving at the weekend.

A pair of bargepushers,one old one and an early 60's one.
Pics will follow in time.

Definitely got my work cut out on one of them though!

Charles might like to see the props on both currently fitted. Adds a bit of interest for sure!

jon
Adrian Dale
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Re: data on 102 motors

Post by Adrian Dale »

Today just procured TD23J4 and TC1379G3..... Got them home and realised that a previous owner had switched the power heads so the TC is the fixed drive and TD is the clutch drive. As they came as a pair I believe the switching occurred between the two engines... Ill get some pic (not my strong point) and try to figure out what goes with what.

AJ
headdownarseup
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Re: data on 102 motors

Post by headdownarseup »

if you need any help AJ, you know where to look!

Looking forward to pics and data :)

Just a quick fyi to everybody, the numbers i've got so far on the "list" amount to 70 odd now.

I'll get the list up soon so you can see :D

jon
headdownarseup
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Re: data on 102 motors

Post by headdownarseup »

Picked these 2 old bruisers up yesterday from my mate down south.

A pair of bargepushers, both been "played with" at some point in their lives!
The oldest of the 2 has been "modernised" shall we say, whilst the later motor has definitely seen better days! :lol: (what have i let myself in for with this one i wonder)

Sometimes i just cant help myself?

Point for CHARLES here as he hasn't seen (or heard of) a 3 bladed 13" prop for one of these before. The "normal" prop for a bargepusher is normally a 4 bladed version of a cloverleaf.
I spent around 30 mins taking pics before i started furiously twirling the spanners today!
Take a look.
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headdownarseup
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Re: data on 102 motors

Post by headdownarseup »

and some more pics of the earlier motor (currently wearing some much newer parts which will be swapped over)
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Horsley-Anarak
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Re: data on 102 motors

Post by Horsley-Anarak »

Image

That one will need a little TLC, Is that is why we flush them after the salt :) , what is the gearbox like on that one?

H-A
headdownarseup
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Re: data on 102 motors

Post by headdownarseup »

:DAND SOME MORE :D
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headdownarseup
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Re: data on 102 motors

Post by headdownarseup »

and some more!
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