Rare Post War Engines.

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Gannet
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Rare Post War Engines.

Post by Gannet »

I had a pleasant few days over the last weekend on the Yealm estuary in South Devon with LM29941. This is the only production LM that I am aware of, but it is possible that there are many more around. Does anybody know of another production numbered LM?
It got me thinking of what other post war models appear to exist in very small numbers, or indeed were produced in very limited quantities.
Would forum members like to comment?
The photo shows LM29941 pushing my little dinghy along.
Jeremy
LM29941 on River Yealm 18th Sept 2016.jpg
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Oyster 49
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Re: Rare Post War Engines.

Post by Oyster 49 »

Nice looking that LM, I wonder if there are any more? It would be odd for that model not to be produced even for a modest run?

Obviously the model F springs to mind, as well as SN and SNP engines, which are not actually post war.

Incidentally Jeremy, can you advise the small Amal carb number as fitted to the model F. I think I might have one.
Keith.P
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Re: Rare Post War Engines.

Post by Keith.P »

It seems a high number LM to see so few motors turning up, unless the LM run in conjunction with other motors numbers at the time.
It may have something to do with the fatal flaw of the preserve model and the first 64cc 40 must have turned up about this time.
The LM has not got a rimless flywheel, Just like the standard 40 started life.
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Charles uk
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Re: Rare Post War Engines.

Post by Charles uk »

Well there was the inboards, not many of them.

Kerosene Kingfishers, now who's seen one of those.

Curlews, not a whole heap of those.

The Yamaha legged 5's, less than 100 of them.

There you have a few choices Jeremy!

The conclusion I arrived at, was that it seemed that with all the low production runs, Seagull never had the time to fix the teething problems!
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
Gannet
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Re: Rare Post War Engines.

Post by Gannet »

Adrian,
That would be wonderful about the small Amal carb for my F. I will dig out the number and spec and e mail it to you. Thanks a lot. Early Fs really do deserve to be correct.
Yes, There are 4 Fs on my list, only 2 of which are the small capacity 40cc versions. The other 2 are the bigger c55cc (5/16" studs) with Amal carbs.

Keith,
The LM is in the same serial number sequence as the F, FV, FVP and LS.The data on this site indicates that serial numbers run from 100 to 38325. So my LM29941 was produced in early 1955 alongside the LS. The LS is like an LM but with the bigger gearbox and longer tubes, in the same way that an FVP is like an FV but with the bigger gear box and longer tubes.
The LS/LM were the first of the 64cc engines. The earliest LS of which I have a record is 11413, but it is unlikely that this was the first one, although it would have been sometime after 10000.
I didn't understand what you meant by a rimless flywheel. The magneto baseplate changed from rimless to half rimless at about serial number 11000 or thereabouts.

Charles,
I thought that you would come up with some examples. Although the LM did not have teething troubles, as it was basically an LS power head with the well established FV gearbox.

Any more rarities?

Jeremy
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Charles uk
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Re: Rare Post War Engines.

Post by Charles uk »

It must have had enough teething problems for Seagull to have to design a new cylinder & head gasket with all the costs that would incur.

If it wasn't broke they wouldn't have needed to fix it!
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
Gannet
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Re: Rare Post War Engines.

Post by Gannet »

Charles,
Yes, the SJP/SJM is a more robust design, there is no doubt about that. But every good company improves their product. I just do not agree with you that the LM and by association the LS, suffered 'teething problems' which required a new head and block to fix. Producing probably nearly 40000 of that design of head and block over about 6 years, would indicate that the company was either completely useless in fixing your so called 'teething problems' or that they weren't problems of that nature. But of course in due course they improved the design for the next model.

Seagull clearly understood the significance of the new SJM/SJP design, as I have suggested previously that the SJ probably stood for Sealed Jacket. This was the major design change over the open water jacket design of the previous F, FV, FVP, LM and LS models.

Jeremy
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Jan
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Re: Rare Post War Engines.

Post by Jan »

image.jpeg
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image.jpeg
The small Amal carb for the F model.

Jan
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Keith.P
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Re: Rare Post War Engines.

Post by Keith.P »

First off you had the problem with the tiller, that got a very basic fix, but the problem of corrosion with the open cylinder and long studs wouldn't have been seen until the the motor had been used for a period of time, it wouldn't have been a problem in fresh water so much, but would be in salt water, a motor returned for repair, would have most likely been replaced, rather then repaired.

F carb, would the brass insert be something seagull did.
Gannet
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Re: Rare Post War Engines.

Post by Gannet »

Jan,
Thanks for the excellent photos. Great.
I can see now that the model number is 52/001. I have been trying to find out where i recorded that. F1207 (which is a big engined F at c55cc) has an Amal ident of 52/256.
By the way, how is F341?

Keith,
Yes, there were several improvements from one model to another - no surprise there for a good small progressive company. i think the corrosion problem is very much misunderstood. The Bostik sealant used in conjunction with the steel plates at both ends of the block was designed to prevent water getting to the aluminium and I think was very successful. The problem occurred at the first strip down, when the sealant was thought to be just a gasket goo sealing the cylinder head in a conventional way, and at the other end stopping water getting out and getting into the crankcase. Many people recently on this site I do not think realise the significance of the sealant in preventing electrolytic corrosion. So it was certainly a fragile design in that respect. But surprising numbers have survived......
I like the stub tiller on the F, FV and FVP. What do you call the basic fix? Was that the extra web on the top crankcase?

Jeremy
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Re: Rare Post War Engines.

Post by Keith.P »

What do you call the basic fix?
The tiller was moved to one side, but they still used the original crank case.
Seagull knew about the problems with this model, I will leave it at that.
Gannet
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Re: Rare Post War Engines.

Post by Gannet »

Keith,
Fair comment! The stub tiller was not to everyone's taste - probably not to many people at all!
I like it because its quirky. I do not know where that leaves me!
Cheers,

Jeremy
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Oyster 49
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Re: Rare Post War Engines.

Post by Oyster 49 »

Yes definately quirky! I think the oval canted tank is similar too. The little forty range is an interesting subject. A stepping stone from the 102 to a new design which ended up as the SJM/SJP and the LLS. All good stuff.

The Amal carb I have is stamped 223/001. I picked it up on ebay a few weeks ago. Not sure what that one was fitted to, but it looks very similar to the photos Jan has posted.

Interestingly on the AMAL website it does not list the 052, which suggests the 052 was amongst a range of carbs made from the same housing and stamped as per the application.

Jan, can you put your carb next to a rule a photograph it to give info about the general size?
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Re: Rare Post War Engines.

Post by headdownarseup »

Jeremy (and others)

We all like 'em for what they are. Some are more quirky than others, that's what makes them interesting. If we all liked the same thing we'd be quite a boring bunch of folks on here wouldn't we?

I like my 102's purely from an aesthetic point of view. Handsome looking things and well up to most jobs you ask them to do. Although these days i find myself looking more at the little ones too :P
I think the progression within BS over the years as with most good companys is more to do with improvements. Always looking forward never backward.
Henry Ford once said "If it aint broke don't fix it". Fair enough i say, BUT what about improving what's already there to make a better product than before.
Very similar things occur within the motor industry. Whenever a new model is introduced there's usually a period of a couple of years to sort out certain "teething problems". Thereafter most of the earlier problems have been sorted out. I think the same goes for outboards. It's only from constant improvements to certain areas like power outputs and overall performance that these so called "issues" ever get sorted in the first place.

With the more "fragile" early 40 motors i agree with Jeremy in that the job of the sealant at both ends of the block is often miss-understood. As with most old machinery the first generation engines will (to some degree) be considered as quite fragile to subsequent later variants, hence the constant improvements (dont want to say "quick fix" because that's not what this is)
As Keith has pointed out earlier, it's not until a motor comes in for overhaul that these so called "teething problems" get noticed. It's then that the decision is made to "improve/update" certain things. Chas once told me that a few "test motors" were offered to fishermen back in the day with the instructions "Go and try this one out for a while and let us know what you think". This is where BS got a lot of useful information to "improve" here, or "adjust" there. Testing in real world situations and actually put to a job of work in all weathers. What some would think of as an improvement or update.
Some motors they got it right from day one, with others not so much and this i think is what we're talking about here.


As for rare post war engines, i've only heard about an HC. By all accounts this would appear to be a bargepusher variant of a post war 102. I'm sure there are the odd one or two out there somewhere in seagull land (just like Jeremy's LM) but i've yet to actually see one in the flesh.
Then there's the slightly later AHC with hex-head core plugs in the cylinder. I missed out on one the other year and i'm still kicking myself now for it. :cry:
I currently have a slightly later AHC with slotted plugs in the cylinder. It's nice enough, but i'm still after a much older one ( or maybe 2) to make the set.
At this stage i'd like to think the earlier "bargies" were not very well liked back in the day with most folks having a preference to the conventionally geared 102's. These things really are BIG. There's no other word that best describes a bargepusher 102. Just BIG. Possibly a bit too big for the conventional fisherman back in the day. As a result the numbers that still survive would suggest a smaller run of these motors. This is what my data is showing me at the moment. (and as promised in an earlier posting i will be getting round to publishing it quite soon :P )
As of now i only have a handfull of bargies on data. Does this make 'em rare? Maybe! Only time will tell...


Given enough time, one day in the future most of our seagulls will become rare one way or another.

Jon
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Charles uk
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Re: Rare Post War Engines.

Post by Charles uk »

I was discussing with Jeremy earlier, how smaller simple outboards tend to have a longer life expectancy than their larger more complicated siblings.

This is clearly shown with the Marston register, almost 10% of the total production of OA's still surviving in a economically restorable condition, whereas with the FNR models & the twins, the figure is less than half of that.

A figure roughly similar to the survival rate of the little 40 series including the LS & M's, strange life span for such a cute little outboard.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
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