As time goes by, original motors are going to be harder to find, we all know this, but once in a while something like this motor will turn up, so you have to make the most of it, even it it's just a picture or two, if that's all you have to work with.
Like others, I have saved the pictures of this motor and others when they appear on ebay, but that's all you can do; it's something, as it may never be seen again.
I keep coming across on this site "well that's right and that's wrong", with pretty much no proof. Just, "we know it's right, so it is" then someone comes along with a statement and is shot down in flames, again with no proof, just "we know it's right, so it is"
There is seagull literature out there and it's expensive, so it's not going to get posted on the site and I can understand that, but there must be enough information to come up with some sort of basic conclusions.
Like the model F it didn't exist when I was first on this site and was just a myth and then Jeremy came along with the little forty list, they are not an overly common motor, but he made a pretty good job of it, ok he owns most of them.
It's not as though the wartime 102's are uncommon and I have always got the impression, "that we know but are not telling", as it may become public knowledge, that's why we are here isn't it, but it seems not.
I have done the internet searches for ww2 seagull information, time and time again and like others over the years have turned up zip. The last time I searched the net I found a picture of what I think is a seagull transom sitting on the right style boat in ww2.
So, until the site is willing to come out with the information that they do know, then the debate on the 102's is pretty pointless, or just make it a private site.
Sorry for the rant, I don't like posting comments like this, but rather than moaning about it, do something about it.
SD/SDP data sheets
Moderators: John@sos, charlesp, Charles uk, RickUK, Petergalileo
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Charles uk
- Posts: 4954
- Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:38 pm
- Location: Maidenhead Berks UK
Re: SD/SDP data sheets
Charles all the boxed military parts I've seen have stores inspection stickers on them, some with several, you will note on the stencil it gives the inspection date & when the next one is due, which appears to be every 5 years, this inspection would require the Seagull to be fully tested to ensure it was "fit & ready for use" then repacked for storage, after which it would be normal to restencil the box with the info we see.
It would be nice to see if this stencil has previous inspection dates underneath it.
At some point during this 5 years it was demobbed as it wasn't inspected in 69.
It would be nice to see if this stencil has previous inspection dates underneath it.
At some point during this 5 years it was demobbed as it wasn't inspected in 69.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
Re: SD/SDP data sheets
Agreed, Charles. My point was that the motor we're talking about has been out of its box as you say, which means that it isn't strictly "as it left the factory".
Keith if your comments refer to my observation that the carburettor collar doubled as a depth adjusting collar I have merely taken that information from a combination of observing a number of SDs that have such a collar round the upper part of the drive shaft tube, and comparing it with the one round the carburettor. They are the same thing. My observation is confirmed by noting that they appear in the military parts list and are illustrated therein.
Nobody is playing secret squirrels.
The parts list also tells us that the grease gun supplied by the Ministry was described as "Tecalemit, Pom Pom type B", and it tells us about transom brackets, and it tells us that carburettor needles had 2 grooves (so the user could select richer or leaner running to cater for different climates).
Keith if your comments refer to my observation that the carburettor collar doubled as a depth adjusting collar I have merely taken that information from a combination of observing a number of SDs that have such a collar round the upper part of the drive shaft tube, and comparing it with the one round the carburettor. They are the same thing. My observation is confirmed by noting that they appear in the military parts list and are illustrated therein.
Nobody is playing secret squirrels.
The parts list also tells us that the grease gun supplied by the Ministry was described as "Tecalemit, Pom Pom type B", and it tells us about transom brackets, and it tells us that carburettor needles had 2 grooves (so the user could select richer or leaner running to cater for different climates).
Re: SD/SDP data sheets
Ooh, that is fascinating. Any more info on the parts list Charlesp?
How is the fluffy little dog getting along ☺
How is the fluffy little dog getting along ☺
Re: SD/SDP data sheets
If you're referring to my best mate, he is due for what I call a jet wash and strim tomorrow As he is getting a bit rancid. This means I can't go play shooting with the boys, I'm hoping they'll wait for me .
Re: SD/SDP data sheets
Do you guys still have shooting brakes over there or is that a thing of the past? Mind you we don't have stationwagons as such anymore.
Wet dog! Do you blow dry it? O dear.
Wet dog! Do you blow dry it? O dear.
-
headdownarseup
- Posts: 2484
- Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:26 pm
- Location: bristol
Re: SD/SDP data sheets
Do you see what i'm up against here. I like a challenge but sometimes it doesn't yield very much if i'm being honest.
I agree with Keith on a lot of things. I will say this though. Sometimes things aren't always what they seem. I just try and tell it how i see it. Straight down the middle with no added "fluffy bits". You can then make up your own minds whether or not what i've found out is right or wrong. Not a rant, far from it, just trying to explain how things REALLY are and not necessarily how they should be.
A picture or 2 can only tell me so much about how an outboard currently is in the hands of its current owner. 70 odd years down the line and god only knows what might have been messed with.
Carbs i think there are actually 3 different carb bodies and 2 bowls along with (i think) 3 different bowl covers but you'd have to look pretty damn close to see the very subtle difference.(this is a tuff one to get on the data sheets as nobody knows what the hell i'm talking about) There's brass ones too! All of them 46n 2 jet types. Apart from the straight "trumpet" for an inlet cowl which if anything other was fitted could be spotted from 100 paces. (70 odd years takes its toll on a lot of parts remember)
Copper or aluminium for the flywheel cover, well so far i've logged both. I think this would have come down to availability of materials at the time the motor was assembled. Building spitfires etc. during ww2 used up a lot of pots and pans, so perhaps another suitable material could have been substituted hence the copper tops.
If i recall correctly, last year or the year before, Rene compiled a survey about shaft length on SD/SDP types.
I'm of the opinion that for an unmolested SD they're normally LONG SHAFT.(mine is anyway and it's an early one at that with a 3 digit serial number)
SDP's i'm not entirely sure, but it could be both STANDARD and LONGSHAFT but i suspect the shorter.
HSD's for the moment are something of a myth. I'd love to be able to say for sure that they were a legitimate outboard manufactured by BS back in the day. As several other sites have the serial prefix listed we can only speculate on how these appeared, if they were ever made, and how many. Up till now i've only heard a rumour of just 1, whether or not it turns out to be another "myth" we'll have to wait and see.
Gearboxes with stamps.
Curious one this. I'd like to think that SOME (but not all of them) were stamped at various stages of the build order in order to pass through an approval via the ministry of supply to make sure BS were making these to a set standard. A form of scrutineering if you will. Again this is a detail i've tried really hard to obtain on the data sheets. All i can say for now is that some have stamps and some don't. (mine doesn't but then again it could have been "messed with" before i got hold of it) Difficult one to answer for sure
Serial numbers with DOTS. Another mystery i might never get to the bottom of. Some do and some don't (depends on how accurate the returning data is) It's a simple omission that might mean something at some point, but possibly it's another form of identity of the guy actually doing the stamping. We've talked about other letters appearing elsewhere on the crankcases in later motors,same with some of the wartime motors i've managed to get information from. Again, some do and some don't.
A lot of the finer details seem to get lost in translation. Difficult at the best of times, but unless i can spot them on a photo it's going to be another tuff one to get to grips with.
Something i've been looking into recently is the PATENTS concerning those clutch levers and anything else relating to British Seagull over the years. Trying to obtain a date when the patent was applied for may give me something more to go on. So far nothing to report back. All i can say so far with bronze clutch levers is some are scripted and some aren't. (mine isn't, it's plain bronze)
Packing crates/boxes.
Something of a rarity. Hens teeth probably explains it best. If you've got one cherish it.
Same with the original fixing bracket.
Alas, the vast majority of these motors will have had a different bracket attached to them over the years. These things get bashed and break over the years through work. Whatever works on them is how i find them a lot of the time, it's how they are but not necessarily how they should be. Another tuff one to get to grips with on the sheets.
What i tried to do with my data forms was to split the data into 3 separate sections in order to try and establish what the build specs were for these. Same with the post-war 102's, but even that is too complicated it seems.
A bit long winded i know, but i've got to start somewhere with it.
Starting with the powerhead
Ignition system (coolie or flat top or other, JM numbers where applicable or flywheel dates) Some blank spaces here in the sheets. Difficult to get hold of accurately as not many folks are willing to remove the flywheel nut for a look. (i can understand that)
What cylinder does it have? (short water jacket or long) You may laugh but they're not all as they should be you know
What carb does it have (3 types i've recorded,but nearly always a 46n in one form or other) You'd be surprised at how many have a later carb fitted as and when that particular data has come back with a photo for verification.
Float bowls were something i hadn't thought of too much until recently. Now i know though
Inlet cowl (straight brass or cast aluminium) or other!
Tiller (length, grip, steel or brass, throttle lever type, brass or chrome or plated)
Tank mounts (pressed brass or cast aluminium) plain or chrome where applicable
Fuel tanks (brass or steel, bayonet or screw type)
Fuel cap (screw or bayonet, brass, chrome or aluminum or other)
Fuel taps for the most part seem to be either brass or zinc plated.(not chrome) Whether or not the very early ones did or did not have a "Ewarts" tap is going to be a hard one to obtain with any accuracy.
Fuel pipe (copper or plastic or other)
I'll be honest i didn't bother with the material the throttle cable was made from as many "originals" have been discarded by now anyway, BUT since you asked Hugo i will make an effort with this one. (going by some of my early post-war 102's, the braided ones seem to be reasonably common albeit in very poor condition and too badly kinked out of shape to be of any use nowadays though)
Something i thought was a good one was the spark plug cap. NGK,Champion or the more common Seagull bakelite type etc. Again these things get binned over the years so another very difficult one to get to grips with, as is the HT LEAD itself. Some have a very thick section lead, and some have the more common smaller lead. (8mm i think but i could be wrong) Mine has a thicker sectioned HT lead, and a (ahem) "cut-down" bakelite cap. Wrong i know, but trying to get hold of an authentic one from the 40's is nigh on impossible now unless you want to pay well over the odds for one.
Then i asked for details on what i termed as the "middle bit".
Transom bracket (pot luck here as anything seems to get fitted over the years) Arthur Bray had his way with a lot of this early in the post-war years. Skeletal brackets make the occasional appearance on the sheets but not many. A lot has happened to many of these motors over the last 70 odd years. Anything goes just to keep them running by whatever works.
G clamps (hollow or holed where applicable) Do we know the difference between a hollow and a holed? Quite obvious really.
Thumbscrews ("T" or bent brass) simple enough description i think.
Tilt stay (1 tooth or 2) another one you'd be surprised at what gets fitted over the years.(3 different types of these too, but you'd need to know what you're looking at) They break after all.
Friction cup (aluminium or bakelite, and numbers on the aluminium types)
Similar goings on with that "HEIGHT ADJUSTER" that doubles up as a carb collar. Some have it, some don't. (same with post-war 102's)
Thrust block (bronze or aluminium or plastic) i've logged all 3 on BOTH sheets. Something that gets bent and broken over time.
Lastly i asked for details on the lower unit.
How many holes has it got on the water inlet (often 3x3) unless it's had a later box fitted.
Has it got any oil/grease nipples and how many (often 3, 1 in the pumphousing(straight out back exhaust) 2 in the gearcase itself. Nothing unusual there. Any oddities can easily be identified with a later gearbox with slots.
Chas. often asked me whether there's a bushing inside the drive tube. To try and ask an owner if they wouldn't mind just stripping down their ancient outboard for this information OFTEN fell on deaf ears. (i wonder why) Not many owners have helped with this one, but to those that have i thank you.
Ministry stampings. (as i mentioned earlier, some do and some don't)
Clutched or direct drive and which type of lever (serial number should tell me this at the start where applicable)
Prop (mostly the swept back ones, but a few with more modern hydrofans) I just list the information, i don't ask why it's got a different prop to all the rest.
All in all i think that was as accurate as i could have made things. The trouble is though that unless we all know what terminology means what to who and where, it gets lost in translation.
A few good photos would have sufficed all of the above, but again not everyone can take a decent photo. Difficult, but i do what i can with every photo i get. With a mere 20 odd on the "wartime" list, that's not really a lot to go on as far as proof one way or the other. It is what it is, all i can do is log the information for each motor (warts and all) and try to pick through the bones of it.
All i can do is try.
The devil really is in the detail. Where do you stop with it? And just how "picky" do you want to be with it.
Charles P's mention of obtaining authentic wartime paperwork would help ENORMOUSLY for me, but the chances of that happening any time soon are remote at best, BUT i do have a couple of contacts within the MOD as i've mentioned which i keep nudging every now and then. See what happens i suppose.
Lastly, like Chas.L i'd also like to know where that boxed SD went. From memory this was listed on ebay last year. Nobody seems to know where it went, unless it's owner is hiding it for a reason. A lot could be learned from that motor and its box, and i for one wouldn't care about how much it costs in fuel to see it for a closer look.
If anyone here does happen to know its whereabouts please don't keep us in the dark, even if it is in foreign lands by now.
Jon
ps to both Charles.
If by any chance you do find some old paperwork you wouldn't mind taking some photocopies of, let me know. It would help me out a great deal.
I agree with Keith on a lot of things. I will say this though. Sometimes things aren't always what they seem. I just try and tell it how i see it. Straight down the middle with no added "fluffy bits". You can then make up your own minds whether or not what i've found out is right or wrong. Not a rant, far from it, just trying to explain how things REALLY are and not necessarily how they should be.
A picture or 2 can only tell me so much about how an outboard currently is in the hands of its current owner. 70 odd years down the line and god only knows what might have been messed with.
Carbs i think there are actually 3 different carb bodies and 2 bowls along with (i think) 3 different bowl covers but you'd have to look pretty damn close to see the very subtle difference.(this is a tuff one to get on the data sheets as nobody knows what the hell i'm talking about) There's brass ones too! All of them 46n 2 jet types. Apart from the straight "trumpet" for an inlet cowl which if anything other was fitted could be spotted from 100 paces. (70 odd years takes its toll on a lot of parts remember)
Copper or aluminium for the flywheel cover, well so far i've logged both. I think this would have come down to availability of materials at the time the motor was assembled. Building spitfires etc. during ww2 used up a lot of pots and pans, so perhaps another suitable material could have been substituted hence the copper tops.
If i recall correctly, last year or the year before, Rene compiled a survey about shaft length on SD/SDP types.
I'm of the opinion that for an unmolested SD they're normally LONG SHAFT.(mine is anyway and it's an early one at that with a 3 digit serial number)
SDP's i'm not entirely sure, but it could be both STANDARD and LONGSHAFT but i suspect the shorter.
HSD's for the moment are something of a myth. I'd love to be able to say for sure that they were a legitimate outboard manufactured by BS back in the day. As several other sites have the serial prefix listed we can only speculate on how these appeared, if they were ever made, and how many. Up till now i've only heard a rumour of just 1, whether or not it turns out to be another "myth" we'll have to wait and see.
Gearboxes with stamps.
Curious one this. I'd like to think that SOME (but not all of them) were stamped at various stages of the build order in order to pass through an approval via the ministry of supply to make sure BS were making these to a set standard. A form of scrutineering if you will. Again this is a detail i've tried really hard to obtain on the data sheets. All i can say for now is that some have stamps and some don't. (mine doesn't but then again it could have been "messed with" before i got hold of it) Difficult one to answer for sure
Serial numbers with DOTS. Another mystery i might never get to the bottom of. Some do and some don't (depends on how accurate the returning data is) It's a simple omission that might mean something at some point, but possibly it's another form of identity of the guy actually doing the stamping. We've talked about other letters appearing elsewhere on the crankcases in later motors,same with some of the wartime motors i've managed to get information from. Again, some do and some don't.
A lot of the finer details seem to get lost in translation. Difficult at the best of times, but unless i can spot them on a photo it's going to be another tuff one to get to grips with.
Something i've been looking into recently is the PATENTS concerning those clutch levers and anything else relating to British Seagull over the years. Trying to obtain a date when the patent was applied for may give me something more to go on. So far nothing to report back. All i can say so far with bronze clutch levers is some are scripted and some aren't. (mine isn't, it's plain bronze)
Packing crates/boxes.
Something of a rarity. Hens teeth probably explains it best. If you've got one cherish it.
Same with the original fixing bracket.
Alas, the vast majority of these motors will have had a different bracket attached to them over the years. These things get bashed and break over the years through work. Whatever works on them is how i find them a lot of the time, it's how they are but not necessarily how they should be. Another tuff one to get to grips with on the sheets.
What i tried to do with my data forms was to split the data into 3 separate sections in order to try and establish what the build specs were for these. Same with the post-war 102's, but even that is too complicated it seems.
A bit long winded i know, but i've got to start somewhere with it.
Starting with the powerhead
Ignition system (coolie or flat top or other, JM numbers where applicable or flywheel dates) Some blank spaces here in the sheets. Difficult to get hold of accurately as not many folks are willing to remove the flywheel nut for a look. (i can understand that)
What cylinder does it have? (short water jacket or long) You may laugh but they're not all as they should be you know
What carb does it have (3 types i've recorded,but nearly always a 46n in one form or other) You'd be surprised at how many have a later carb fitted as and when that particular data has come back with a photo for verification.
Float bowls were something i hadn't thought of too much until recently. Now i know though
Inlet cowl (straight brass or cast aluminium) or other!
Tiller (length, grip, steel or brass, throttle lever type, brass or chrome or plated)
Tank mounts (pressed brass or cast aluminium) plain or chrome where applicable
Fuel tanks (brass or steel, bayonet or screw type)
Fuel cap (screw or bayonet, brass, chrome or aluminum or other)
Fuel taps for the most part seem to be either brass or zinc plated.(not chrome) Whether or not the very early ones did or did not have a "Ewarts" tap is going to be a hard one to obtain with any accuracy.
Fuel pipe (copper or plastic or other)
I'll be honest i didn't bother with the material the throttle cable was made from as many "originals" have been discarded by now anyway, BUT since you asked Hugo i will make an effort with this one. (going by some of my early post-war 102's, the braided ones seem to be reasonably common albeit in very poor condition and too badly kinked out of shape to be of any use nowadays though)
Something i thought was a good one was the spark plug cap. NGK,Champion or the more common Seagull bakelite type etc. Again these things get binned over the years so another very difficult one to get to grips with, as is the HT LEAD itself. Some have a very thick section lead, and some have the more common smaller lead. (8mm i think but i could be wrong) Mine has a thicker sectioned HT lead, and a (ahem) "cut-down" bakelite cap. Wrong i know, but trying to get hold of an authentic one from the 40's is nigh on impossible now unless you want to pay well over the odds for one.
Then i asked for details on what i termed as the "middle bit".
Transom bracket (pot luck here as anything seems to get fitted over the years) Arthur Bray had his way with a lot of this early in the post-war years. Skeletal brackets make the occasional appearance on the sheets but not many. A lot has happened to many of these motors over the last 70 odd years. Anything goes just to keep them running by whatever works.
G clamps (hollow or holed where applicable) Do we know the difference between a hollow and a holed? Quite obvious really.
Thumbscrews ("T" or bent brass) simple enough description i think.
Tilt stay (1 tooth or 2) another one you'd be surprised at what gets fitted over the years.(3 different types of these too, but you'd need to know what you're looking at) They break after all.
Friction cup (aluminium or bakelite, and numbers on the aluminium types)
Similar goings on with that "HEIGHT ADJUSTER" that doubles up as a carb collar. Some have it, some don't. (same with post-war 102's)
Thrust block (bronze or aluminium or plastic) i've logged all 3 on BOTH sheets. Something that gets bent and broken over time.
Lastly i asked for details on the lower unit.
How many holes has it got on the water inlet (often 3x3) unless it's had a later box fitted.
Has it got any oil/grease nipples and how many (often 3, 1 in the pumphousing(straight out back exhaust) 2 in the gearcase itself. Nothing unusual there. Any oddities can easily be identified with a later gearbox with slots.
Chas. often asked me whether there's a bushing inside the drive tube. To try and ask an owner if they wouldn't mind just stripping down their ancient outboard for this information OFTEN fell on deaf ears. (i wonder why) Not many owners have helped with this one, but to those that have i thank you.
Ministry stampings. (as i mentioned earlier, some do and some don't)
Clutched or direct drive and which type of lever (serial number should tell me this at the start where applicable)
Prop (mostly the swept back ones, but a few with more modern hydrofans) I just list the information, i don't ask why it's got a different prop to all the rest.
All in all i think that was as accurate as i could have made things. The trouble is though that unless we all know what terminology means what to who and where, it gets lost in translation.
A few good photos would have sufficed all of the above, but again not everyone can take a decent photo. Difficult, but i do what i can with every photo i get. With a mere 20 odd on the "wartime" list, that's not really a lot to go on as far as proof one way or the other. It is what it is, all i can do is log the information for each motor (warts and all) and try to pick through the bones of it.
All i can do is try.
The devil really is in the detail. Where do you stop with it? And just how "picky" do you want to be with it.
Charles P's mention of obtaining authentic wartime paperwork would help ENORMOUSLY for me, but the chances of that happening any time soon are remote at best, BUT i do have a couple of contacts within the MOD as i've mentioned which i keep nudging every now and then. See what happens i suppose.
Lastly, like Chas.L i'd also like to know where that boxed SD went. From memory this was listed on ebay last year. Nobody seems to know where it went, unless it's owner is hiding it for a reason. A lot could be learned from that motor and its box, and i for one wouldn't care about how much it costs in fuel to see it for a closer look.
If anyone here does happen to know its whereabouts please don't keep us in the dark, even if it is in foreign lands by now.
Jon
ps to both Charles.
If by any chance you do find some old paperwork you wouldn't mind taking some photocopies of, let me know. It would help me out a great deal.
Re: SD/SDP data sheets
I thought they all had the one carb whether that be brass bodied or not. What are the different variants?
Sounds like you have it covered. Have you charted the info on a spreadsheet. Can you publish it on here as it progresses please.
I'm trying to contact ebay seller of boxed SD but no response. I was the highest bidder before he pulled it. I've tried to contact him before. Why no one inspected in July last year while it was current beats me, most irresponsible. Lots of good photos though.
Sounds like you have it covered. Have you charted the info on a spreadsheet. Can you publish it on here as it progresses please.
I'm trying to contact ebay seller of boxed SD but no response. I was the highest bidder before he pulled it. I've tried to contact him before. Why no one inspected in July last year while it was current beats me, most irresponsible. Lots of good photos though.
Re: SD/SDP data sheets
Hmm.
From War Office Spares Identification List December 1952 (some six years after the wartime production ceased)
One carburettor, listed as "Amal Type 46A/3A
Mixing chambers are either brass, for use with single groove needle,
or diecast, for use with two groove needle. This supersedes the brass single grove combination
Only Marston "Type JM" magnetos are listed, no mention at all of a flat top ignition. There is no mention of copper or aluminium for the magneto cover.
Gudgeon pins are supplied with pads
Tiller arms are listed as "ARMS, TILLER, c.w. DOVER GRIP (Silicon alloy, M.S. or brass 7/8-in x 1-ft. 2.1/4-in)
Separate plastic grips are listed, too. (I assume "M.S." means mild steel.)
Tanks and their bits & bobs need a bit of looking at, I'll post later on that.
Petrol taps are illustrated as the Ewarts one, apart from a small hexagonal nut instead of the peened fixing on the knurled pull grip. There's no mention of the earlier Marston type.
The entry for propellers reads: "PROPELLERS, R.H., 2 BLADE, 6-in PITCH x 10-in (Birmabright or sil alloy)
There is no reference to what we would call "Standard" shaft motors, only long.
The clutch lever is referred to as "LEVERS, CLUTCH OPERATING (G.M. with 15/32-in and 7/64-in holes) Gun Metal?
I hope this helps. I offer no opinions here save that caution should be exercised. This is a spares list, and some items appearing in it may have appeared after the war as new bits become available. By 1952 the production of civilian 102s was in full swing. The inclusion of the later inlet cowl as an alternative to the trumpet intake is an example.
There's work to be done deciphering the different issues of motor sets, the range of brackets, and petrol tanks.
A wartime parts list would be a real help.
From War Office Spares Identification List December 1952 (some six years after the wartime production ceased)
One carburettor, listed as "Amal Type 46A/3A
Mixing chambers are either brass, for use with single groove needle,
or diecast, for use with two groove needle. This supersedes the brass single grove combination
Only Marston "Type JM" magnetos are listed, no mention at all of a flat top ignition. There is no mention of copper or aluminium for the magneto cover.
Gudgeon pins are supplied with pads
Tiller arms are listed as "ARMS, TILLER, c.w. DOVER GRIP (Silicon alloy, M.S. or brass 7/8-in x 1-ft. 2.1/4-in)
Separate plastic grips are listed, too. (I assume "M.S." means mild steel.)
Tanks and their bits & bobs need a bit of looking at, I'll post later on that.
Petrol taps are illustrated as the Ewarts one, apart from a small hexagonal nut instead of the peened fixing on the knurled pull grip. There's no mention of the earlier Marston type.
The entry for propellers reads: "PROPELLERS, R.H., 2 BLADE, 6-in PITCH x 10-in (Birmabright or sil alloy)
There is no reference to what we would call "Standard" shaft motors, only long.
The clutch lever is referred to as "LEVERS, CLUTCH OPERATING (G.M. with 15/32-in and 7/64-in holes) Gun Metal?
I hope this helps. I offer no opinions here save that caution should be exercised. This is a spares list, and some items appearing in it may have appeared after the war as new bits become available. By 1952 the production of civilian 102s was in full swing. The inclusion of the later inlet cowl as an alternative to the trumpet intake is an example.
There's work to be done deciphering the different issues of motor sets, the range of brackets, and petrol tanks.
A wartime parts list would be a real help.
-
headdownarseup
- Posts: 2484
- Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:26 pm
- Location: bristol
Re: SD/SDP data sheets
Guys
all i've done so far with both lists is to log the data (warts and all) on every single motor. It's the only way.
Obviously there will be a lot of parts that have been removed and replaced over the years, and as such this is how a few motors will appear on the sheets. To be honest, there are a few more honest looking ones in there, but there's also a lot that don't quite comply with the others.Trying to work out what remains of the original bits from the 40's with each one is something of a headache at the moment, but i'll get there eventually.
This is why i'd be much happier with at least 100 entries on the list (if possible) to be able to pick through all the bones and see what's left.
I've done this with the post-war 102's and am now starting to see patterns forming. I can't imagine the wartime motors being drastically different somehow except for some of the parts they're made from.
How they exist today is not necessarily how they left the factory in a box all those years ago.
But i keep plugging away with what little i have to work on.
But you're right Chas. P. some wartime paperwork would help a lot here.
I've got a photocopy version of the wartime parts manual from 1962 with a lot of later revisions inside. Some of the details refer to using later part numbers as and when the originals were no longer available. I think this stands true for most of the other later models as well made during the post war years, although in a different manual.
I've seen several part numbers superseded by newer part numbers with a different prefix in them. I think this would refer to when the original parts have been depleted then you're left with a later part to fit, on occasions with the same number but a different prefix at the beginning.
I've noticed this between a few of mine comparing 1 old part against a slightly newer part and referring back to both manuals for confirmation.
Some of it fits nicely with my reckonings.
But as ever, i proceed with caution.
In time i'll try and get some pics up of carbs and show you what i've found. Much easier that way rather than me telling you.
(i need a drink now )
Jon
all i've done so far with both lists is to log the data (warts and all) on every single motor. It's the only way.
Obviously there will be a lot of parts that have been removed and replaced over the years, and as such this is how a few motors will appear on the sheets. To be honest, there are a few more honest looking ones in there, but there's also a lot that don't quite comply with the others.Trying to work out what remains of the original bits from the 40's with each one is something of a headache at the moment, but i'll get there eventually.
This is why i'd be much happier with at least 100 entries on the list (if possible) to be able to pick through all the bones and see what's left.
I've done this with the post-war 102's and am now starting to see patterns forming. I can't imagine the wartime motors being drastically different somehow except for some of the parts they're made from.
How they exist today is not necessarily how they left the factory in a box all those years ago.
But i keep plugging away with what little i have to work on.
But you're right Chas. P. some wartime paperwork would help a lot here.
I've got a photocopy version of the wartime parts manual from 1962 with a lot of later revisions inside. Some of the details refer to using later part numbers as and when the originals were no longer available. I think this stands true for most of the other later models as well made during the post war years, although in a different manual.
I've seen several part numbers superseded by newer part numbers with a different prefix in them. I think this would refer to when the original parts have been depleted then you're left with a later part to fit, on occasions with the same number but a different prefix at the beginning.
I've noticed this between a few of mine comparing 1 old part against a slightly newer part and referring back to both manuals for confirmation.
Some of it fits nicely with my reckonings.
But as ever, i proceed with caution.
In time i'll try and get some pics up of carbs and show you what i've found. Much easier that way rather than me telling you.
(i need a drink now
)Jon
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Charles uk
- Posts: 4954
- Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:38 pm
- Location: Maidenhead Berks UK
Re: SD/SDP data sheets
Jon rather the depress every SD owner with a huge list of questions that many can't be bothered to answer, do you really need to know that it has a 1950s choke & cowl & a flat top magneto?
Why don't you tell them what your certain of, like short water jacket cylinder, crankcase with fitted studs & round tiller arm boss & steel fuel tank with a bayonet cap, etc.
You will have to check your parts list to see if there are 2 part numbers for different shaft lengths that might clear the mist around this.
So only questions like,
Serial number.
JM numbers & matching?
Fixed or clutch?
A lot less questions, you know the rest, you must have a clearer idea of what they had by now, the SD, SDP question will probably resolve itself in the serial number fixed or clutch questions.
When I say SD I mean the whole series SD, SDP & HSD.
I've seen an HSD but years ago, but I can't remember where, they will turn up again, I think John W has seen a couple have you asked him?
Why don't you tell them what your certain of, like short water jacket cylinder, crankcase with fitted studs & round tiller arm boss & steel fuel tank with a bayonet cap, etc.
You will have to check your parts list to see if there are 2 part numbers for different shaft lengths that might clear the mist around this.
So only questions like,
Serial number.
JM numbers & matching?
Fixed or clutch?
A lot less questions, you know the rest, you must have a clearer idea of what they had by now, the SD, SDP question will probably resolve itself in the serial number fixed or clutch questions.
When I say SD I mean the whole series SD, SDP & HSD.
I've seen an HSD but years ago, but I can't remember where, they will turn up again, I think John W has seen a couple have you asked him?
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
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headdownarseup
- Posts: 2484
- Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:26 pm
- Location: bristol
Re: SD/SDP data sheets
All very good points Chas. and will be taken on board i assure you.
What i'd like to understand from YOU Chas. is how accurate you'd like me to try and be with this. Questions have already been asked in other threads that as yet have been left unanswered.
Everything that i previously asked for with my data acquisition i think was pretty much spot on. The more entries on the list the better in order to see what remains of any original parts from the 40's. Without having any genuine wartime paperwork, i think this is going to be the only way to establish how these motors left the factory back in the 40's. I'm not trying to piss off any SD/P owners by doing this. I think we can all assume that by now a few of these motors may or may not have been tampered with over the years. By comparing several sets of data against all the others that happen to make an appearance, we should be able to see patterns forming with certain components. e.g tillers/grips,carbs/inlets,standard or long shaft,stamped boxes or non-stamped boxes. The list goes on, but you get what i'm trying to say here Without the data and help from owners wherever you are, it makes this a very hard task indeed. And let's face it, 20 odd so far is nothing to get excited about.
Preventing a mass migration to foreign climes would help things for me, but alas we can't stop that from happening can we?
We've talked about how some of these motors boxes got opened up after the war in the quartermaster's stores etc. From what you've described it would seem that nothing on these motors would have been altered in any way. Just the boxes opened up, checked to see if the numbers tally with whatever paperwork they might have had at the time, the lid nailed shut, and perhaps another date on the outside of the box stenciled in. Does that sound about right?
Something else i'd like a bit more help understanding is the JM numbers and sequencing.
Do they start from a low number, if so, how low? I may have asked this question before so apologies if this is going over old ground again!
Any help is much appreciated with this.
Paperwork would help me too, but i do what i can with very little.
Jon
What i'd like to understand from YOU Chas. is how accurate you'd like me to try and be with this. Questions have already been asked in other threads that as yet have been left unanswered.
Everything that i previously asked for with my data acquisition i think was pretty much spot on. The more entries on the list the better in order to see what remains of any original parts from the 40's. Without having any genuine wartime paperwork, i think this is going to be the only way to establish how these motors left the factory back in the 40's. I'm not trying to piss off any SD/P owners by doing this. I think we can all assume that by now a few of these motors may or may not have been tampered with over the years. By comparing several sets of data against all the others that happen to make an appearance, we should be able to see patterns forming with certain components. e.g tillers/grips,carbs/inlets,standard or long shaft,stamped boxes or non-stamped boxes. The list goes on, but you get what i'm trying to say here
Without the data and help from owners wherever you are, it makes this a very hard task indeed. And let's face it, 20 odd so far is nothing to get excited about.Preventing a mass migration to foreign climes would help things for me, but alas we can't stop that from happening can we?
We've talked about how some of these motors boxes got opened up after the war in the quartermaster's stores etc. From what you've described it would seem that nothing on these motors would have been altered in any way. Just the boxes opened up, checked to see if the numbers tally with whatever paperwork they might have had at the time, the lid nailed shut, and perhaps another date on the outside of the box stenciled in. Does that sound about right?
Something else i'd like a bit more help understanding is the JM numbers and sequencing.
Do they start from a low number, if so, how low? I may have asked this question before so apologies if this is going over old ground again!
Any help is much appreciated with this.
Paperwork would help me too, but i do what i can with very little.
Jon
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Charles uk
- Posts: 4954
- Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:38 pm
- Location: Maidenhead Berks UK
Re: SD/SDP data sheets
What does your data suggest? re JM numbers.
Didn't you say you had a copy of a 62 parts list?
Is there long & short shaft part numbers of all the different components required for both the different types, if both types were produced then they must have different numbers or risk supplying the wrong parts.
Didn't you say you had a copy of a 62 parts list?
Is there long & short shaft part numbers of all the different components required for both the different types, if both types were produced then they must have different numbers or risk supplying the wrong parts.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
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Charles uk
- Posts: 4954
- Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:38 pm
- Location: Maidenhead Berks UK
Re: SD/SDP data sheets
Ooops sorry, the other Charles has already stated that the 52 parts list, only has one shaft length!
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
Re: SD/SDP data sheets
I suspect, Charles, that you have a good idea when the JM numbers started, too.
I reckon we decided that the original pre-war motors (OA up to ON/P) were maybe 2,000-ish in total didn't we? The original OA Marstons started with low numbers, but for the life of me I cannot remember if the JM numbers were 100 greater (or thereabouts) than the serials of the motors or was it the other way round?
Jon I think you have the answers as to inlets and tillers.
I reckon we decided that the original pre-war motors (OA up to ON/P) were maybe 2,000-ish in total didn't we? The original OA Marstons started with low numbers, but for the life of me I cannot remember if the JM numbers were 100 greater (or thereabouts) than the serials of the motors or was it the other way round?
Jon I think you have the answers as to inlets and tillers.