What went wrong?

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seagull101
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Re: What went wrong?

Postby seagull101 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:17 pm

Charles uk wrote:So in the mid to late 60's no evidence of Lacquer use by Seagull, but still quite a glossy finish.


Didn't the steel tank come out in 1978 or 1979?

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Charles uk
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Re: What went wrong?

Postby Charles uk » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:24 pm

No that was the plastic "long range" sometime around 87 on the QUB series & model 90's, the steel ones had been around for quite a long time.
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headdownarseup
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Re: What went wrong?

Postby headdownarseup » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:41 pm

Hold on a mo here.

The smaller steel tanks often found on late model 40's and some of the century type motors in the 1970's appear to be powder coated. Black or blue seem to be the 2 normal colours here, and larger "long range" tanks (generally) are painted. Some "long range" tanks came in brass as well, just like the steel variants.Decals are slightly different too with many of these "ugly" tanks. Rust usually gets the better of these tanks in the long run, and very often get swapped out with an older oval brass tank.

From what i've seen to date, 9 out of 10 tanks made before the 70's are generally brass and painted,and so far most of the tanks i've viewed have had very little in the way of remaining paint or decals on them. Once in a while you'll come across that "mint condition" tank that's been hidden away for years. I bet many of them were painted with a proprietary brand of shiny clear coat to protect the decal. Anything from the 70's to early 80's tends to be a powder coated steel affair, usually blue or black with corresponding decals. 80's onwards for most appear to be plastic and generally a "long range" similar in size to the older steel ones. Aside from the wartime and pre-war models, i think that about does it.


So, the question remains. Shiny or dull finish? Lacquered or varnished? or something other...?

For me anyway, following as best as i can see in older photographs, quite a lot appear to have a fair shine in the pics which leads me to believe there must have been some sort of clear coat over the decal and paint. It's risky i know to put all my eggs in one basket like this, but thinking rationally for a moment, photoshopping didn't exist from the humble beginnings of British Seagull, but photography certainly did. We've talked before about how BS often used the same generic sets of photo's for their advertising unless there was a very real need to change things. Pictures,and we're talking about black&white here, no matter how grainy they can appear at times provide a tantalising glimpse into the past. Look a little bit closer and you'll see what i can. Shiny paint is often an indication of a varnish or lacquer coat, a dull finish might perhaps indicate a less fussy finish. A lot of these older gulls may not have all their correct clothes about them any more, but look a little closer and you'll find clues here and there. Underneath fuel tank straps on older 102's and around the tank mounting bolts/studs are 2 of the more obvious places to look.

A paint depth gauge would soon put this to rights. I might just be able to put my hands on one for a better assessment. 8)

Jon

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Charles uk
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Re: What went wrong?

Postby Charles uk » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:47 pm

Jon why not just look at the decal like Jacob did, if you can see the clear backing area, no lacquer!

Not rocket science.

Pre war defiantly none!
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seagull101
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Re: What went wrong?

Postby seagull101 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:57 pm

I cant comment on pre war as my marston has the wrong tank.
I can comment on war time motors as my SD has a very good transfer (i can get close up photos tomorrow but for now my profile picture will have to do.
I have a FPC and a FPL that also have very good transfers, i will take photos tomorrow.

And looking at my NOS stock tank it shows little of no evidence of lacquer. Sorry about my comment of it being lacquered, i was paying more attention to the far edges.

So to summerise:

Pre war and wartime motors have a Matt black non shiny tank.

Anything after say 1960 (roughly) has a shiny tank but we don't know what makes them so shiny.

Can any of the 102 of early 40 series guys comment on tanks on said motors?

Jacob

Piglola123
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Re: What went wrong?

Postby Piglola123 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:48 pm

Jacob should be proud of his attempt at painting it put my last few attempts to shame was hoping the post would lead to a good paint shop with an exchange service on tanks I could use

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Oyster 49
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Re: What went wrong?

Postby Oyster 49 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:32 am

I very much doubt anybody would pay the going rate for a seagull tank repaint!

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Charles uk
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Re: What went wrong?

Postby Charles uk » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:42 am

After a couple of phone calls this morning, it would appear that Seagull had their own "Paint Shop" as far back as the 60's, that also had ovens, as cylinders & tanks had baked on paint, but no one can remember who manufactured the paint.

On the lacquer question, the answer was "I don't think so, no", but as they shut the doors, nearly 24 years ago it's a big ask for clear memories!
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headdownarseup
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Re: What went wrong?

Postby headdownarseup » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:53 am

Charles, i'm not quite sure what you meant by that last comment , but looking closely at Jacobs pictures i can quite clearly see the very edge of the decal with a clean straight edge. By the looks of things the entire tank looks to have been coated in lacquer (nothing wrong with that in my book) and perhaps what went wrong is some surface contaminants got in the way and "pickled" the clear coat.
Not knocking Jacobs attempts here, far from it.

I can agree with how things may or may not have been done back in the day, but as i've said before with many of these tanks it's becoming very difficult to say for certain whether or not a lacquer or varnish coat was applied at all. For what it's worth i think they were, but many years after these tanks were painted some if not all of the shine will have disappeared leaving us with the impression that they were never given a shiney finish. This is why i suggested looking under tank straps or around tank mounting studs/bolts as these are often areas where the least amount of wear and tear occur. Conflicting information all the way, and as you say the doors were closed a long time ago so obtaining any inside information from the folks that actually did any painting at the factory is going to be a long shot.

As we keep saying each to their own when it comes to restoration. Everyone will have their own take on things.
I like shiny, some don't. Let's leave it at that shall we.
Right or wrong,just enjoy what you've got and be proud that you've kept a piece of british engineering going for a bit longer.


Jon

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charlesp
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Re: What went wrong?

Postby charlesp » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:42 pm

The traditional black tanks had their decals applied and that was that. The original decals used an adhesive that was soluble in an alcohol/water mixture; when they dried they weren't vulnerable to water damage.

After the decals were dry there was no later application of lacquer. Most of the decals were applied by one lady at the Fleets Bridge premises; she was known for her impressive speed and accuracy in placement.

The decals had a gloss finish when applied.

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Oyster 49
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Re: What went wrong?

Postby Oyster 49 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 pm

Nice one Charles, I bet you have spoken to the lady in question in the past too. Just the facts!

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charlesp
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Re: What went wrong?

Postby charlesp » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:16 pm

No Oyster, I haven't I'm afraid. I have spoken at length to her daughter, and to a couple of her colleagues.

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Charles uk
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Re: What went wrong?

Postby Charles uk » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:05 pm

Jon please.

My comment meant when I asked them about the use of lacquer, "I don't think so, no, not even for boat show motors" was the answer I got from the man who finished up as production manager.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

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Keith.P
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Re: What went wrong?

Postby Keith.P » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:11 pm

I honestly don't know the answer, what did BS use as far as paint on the tanks, we know, as it was pointed out that BS kept using the same advertising artwork over and over.
This sounds like a company that wouldn't waste money on any processes they didn't need to.
A baked on paint job would not need a lacquer coat afterwards, so if BS baked the tanks, they would have no need for any lacquer.
As for as the Decals, they are made up of paint, which could be paints or enamels and a optical adhesive layer, which is what is seen on the metal tank surrounding the words and letters.
This is how a water slide Decal is made up, But BS didn't use what you would call a standard water slide decal, as the Decal is made up of individual words and logo Decals, the Decal would have had a top and bottom cover layer, one covering the adhesive layer and the top layer removed once the decal was placed on the tank in the right position, by means of a solvent of some sort, they may have changed the process over the years.
Even though BS made outboards, they are not too dissimilar to any piece of agricultural machinery of the time, basic, made to last and painted well.

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Oyster 49
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Re: What went wrong?

Postby Oyster 49 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:32 am

Some very nice replica decals around for classic bikes etc, including replicas of the original dealer stickers many garages used to put of bikes, cars etc.


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