Bought Another One

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Raya
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Re: Bought Another One

Postby Raya » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:37 am

Thrust washers are safe. There were two, the washer and a shim. Getting all the grease out was a messy job but rewarding. The grease had preserved the gears nicely. The teeth on the crown wheel were perfect with the exception of one tooth that had a small chip. Bearings show no sign of play. The drive shaft was in good condition but is still firmly attached to the pinion shaft. Next step will be to extradite it without damage.

Here is a photo of the crown and pinion gears after the grease was removed.

Crown and pinion gears.jpg
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Oyster 49
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Re: Bought Another One

Postby Oyster 49 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:50 am

Grease in a seagull gearbox is bad news, you are lucky it’s in good condition.

Raya
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Re: Bought Another One

Postby Raya » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:23 am

I was surprised that my plug spanner didn't fit the plug in the outboard. The plug looks quite old being a two part design. It is branded KLG M50. Any chance that this is an original plug from 1950?

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Charles uk
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Re: Bought Another One

Postby Charles uk » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:28 am

You say the bearings & shafts are in good condition, do you have access to measuring equipment so it can be measured properly, just so we can illustrate what happens to bearings & shafts over the years.

A sure sign of wear is that oily film in the dust in your first pictures, more so when there's thick grease in the box, & not the mayonnaise like stuff that was specified.

Do you have any mates who work in engineering who might have access to a set of pin gauges that can measure in the range of 12 to 13mm, or is there a college of engineering near you, one of the lecturers might love showing his students how to measure bearing clearances.

Hugo wouldn't the plug have been an 8 com?
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Hugz
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Re: Bought Another One

Postby Hugz » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:53 am

The replacement for the K.L.G. SM50 is recognised as the champion D16 which is still available. The Champion 8 Com predates the Champion D16 and was predominately used. All three plugs have an 18 mm thread with a half inch reach. Anyone have information on heat rating?

Interestingly the KLG was manufactured by Kenelm Edward Lee Guinness who was an English racing car driver circa 1910-20's who raced for the Sunbeam team. Mr Marston was an Engineer with the Sunbeam Motor Cycle Co so it is not unreasonable to perceive a link with Seagull and the KLG plug though the timeline is tenuous. Anyone have more info?

The most common period plug we see in the forties and fifties is the Champion 8 Com.

three plugs.jpg


Edit: Champion is an American company founded in 1908 in Boston so one has to wonder what was at play for Seagull to use Champion over the English KLG. There is scope for further research here.
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Nudge
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Re: Bought Another One

Postby Nudge » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:25 am

How easy is it to take the K.G.L plug apart? I have taken a 8 Com apart that was so rusty the hex was almost gone.... Just thinking out loud, it may have been the quality and reliability of the 8 Com?
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Hugz
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Re: Bought Another One

Postby Hugz » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:53 am

Rolls Royce used the KGL M50.

Raya
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Re: Bought Another One

Postby Raya » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:30 am

Maybe Champion was able to supply the 8 Com plug to Seagull at a better price than KLG could. Although an American company, Champion did manufacture plugs in England. KLG was Seagull's choice for the plug caps.

My estimate of wear for the gearbox bearings was based soley on the play that I could feel in the shaft. I've had a better look at things and can feel a little play now in the prop shaft bearing. This makes sense, as this bush is most exposed to the water. The end cap bush and pinion bush don't have any play that I can feel. I'll endeavour to have the play measured and report back. I'll replace the prop shaft bush if it is too far out of spec.

I've disassembled the motor further without incident. The flywheel is maked 02-50 so the motor will be a 1950 model.

Here is a photo of a Made in England Champion 8 COM plug.

8 COM plug.jpg
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Gannet
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Re: Bought Another One

Postby Gannet » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:34 am

Hi Raya,
Is it really true that KLG plug caps were the choice of BS? What is the evidence for this? I presume that you are referring to the period around 1950 ish.

There is some evidence, certainly not conclusive, that the brown Champion plug cap was used by BS around 1947/8/9 ish.

Jeremy

Raya
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Re: Bought Another One

Postby Raya » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:09 pm

Jeremy,

I'm no expert on Seagulls. I'm really just going on the references to the KLG cap on this forum and from photos of restored Gulls from the period. It is possible that Seagull used both Champion and KLG components (plugs and caps) prior to making their own. I'm sure others will comment on this topic. The Champion cap of the era looks similar to the KLG one so I may have been deceived.

Champion plug cover.jpg
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Horsley-Anarak
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Re: Bought Another One

Postby Horsley-Anarak » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:15 pm

Raya wrote: It is possible that Seagull used both Champion and KLG components



Yes

2014-07-14 18.57.39.jpg


klg.jpg


Both SD of similar age
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Raya
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Re: Bought Another One

Postby Raya » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:11 pm

The Champion cover looks identical to the Seagull one. My guess would be that the later Seagull caps were manufactured for them by Champion.

Raya
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Re: Bought Another One

Postby Raya » Sat May 04, 2019 10:08 am

I've measured the play in the propeller bushes. As far as I can tell, there is about 2 thou play in the cap bearing and 5 thou play in the propeller bush. I didn't have access to needle gauges, only micrometers, but I think that the measurements are about right. The propeller bush probably needs replacing, so I'll try and source one from Sheridan Marine.

I didn't do much on the motor over Easter but have since found some time, mainly working on the transom bracket. The security bar had been replaced by a bolt which proved impossible to budge. I ended up having to drill it out. I still need to fit a new thumbscrew cup washer and one of the clamp bolts (replace the S/S bolt with a brass one) to finish it off. The chain links a larger than original, however I did source some brass split pins, so it should look pretty original.

Here are before and after shots of the bracket.

As removed.jpg


Transom Bracket (1950).jpg
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Charles uk
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Re: Bought Another One

Postby Charles uk » Sat May 04, 2019 11:09 am

I think you'll find both of your thumb screws are brass (magnet test) & one is a chrome plated one.

I use the thickest gear oil I can scrounge in these oil nipple boxes, I'm using SAE 460 at the moment, try your local agricultural/ industrial supplier they probably have it for the local mining companies in 200 litre drums, their maintenance engineer will probably give you a water bottle full.

I believe Sheridan still have those prop shaft bushes in stock (part no. 1376), but by the time you get it, it will probably owe you A$ 40, it might be best if you take yours down to a local engineering company & tell them it's made from Pb2.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Raya
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Re: Bought Another One

Postby Raya » Mon May 06, 2019 10:13 am

Yes, the thumb screws are brass. The plating on both screws looks more like nickel than chrome to me, but I'm no expert.

I'll try and source the SAE 460.

I've ordered the bush (part no 1376) from Sheridan along with the cup washers and a few other bits. I don't think that I could get much work done for $40 at an engineering firm (all the smaller ones are gone), but thanks for the suggestion.

The bolts that hold the clamps to the brackets are mismatched. One is brass, the other S/S. I assumed that they should be brass but the other (later) brackets I have are fitted with S/S bolts. Anyone know if these bolts brass or stainless back in 1950?


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