grease nipples on lower unit 102

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mozart
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grease nipples on lower unit 102

Post by mozart » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:09 pm

I found a nice looking lower end with grase nipples. It looks like my
102 serial number AD 39132 lower unit except for the fact that my present lower unit has no grase nipples.

Can I interchange parts? The one with nipples is looking unused and I would prefer to use as much parts from it as possible.

When were grese nipples taken out of production? i.e how old is the newly found lower end at least?

kind regards from finland

chris
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Post by chris » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:57 pm

If the gearbox on your AD is working I would stick to that, They do leak as there is no seals.
Some gearboxes had grease nipples added later. They are not designed to run on grease.
The gear boxes are very robust and it takes a lot of abuse to damage them.

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charlesp
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Post by charlesp » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:36 am

All the early 102s from 1936 onwards had nipples. They are oil nipples, not grease nipples

If you fill it with grease you'll wreck it.

They were replaced with a brass filler on the end cap in the later forties/early fifties, which was a much better idea.

If you do decide to use the one with nipples, refer to the other Charles's suggestions for lubrication in the FAQ on the main site.
Last edited by charlesp on Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mozart
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Post by mozart » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:44 am

CHRIS, THIS WAS INTERESTING.
The lower unit with grease nipples looks like unused and fits perfectly the flange where the impeller housing is. Have som difficulties to understand
the age of this lower end, can you help with this?
This (gear box) is polished and has no filling screw for oil) I could however fill the unit from the upper bolt -newer one have screws- which holds the front cup, which has no gasket. The unit looks exactly as the "war time" lower end on the 102 foto gallery on this site; foto sent by Ian. I.e the unit is with clutch, which I will have to take from the original unit.
As my original gear box filled with water and very rusty, could I use this wartime style gearbox if filled with oil?

What are the two holes on the side of the impeller/exhaust outlet flange on Ian's motor?

Thank you for your kind reply!

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charlesp
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Post by charlesp » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:32 am

Ok, the age thing first.

They were very similar from the OP and ON models of 1937 through to the models of 1946. They all have oil nipples down the side, and a single nipple that lubricates the lower shaft bearing in the side of the water pump housing.

Apart from very minor differences in, for example, exhaust outlet wall thickness they're much the same, so we'll call it 1942 to 1946. The earlier (1937) ones are scarec, so it probably isn't one of those.

We can refine it down a bit more. Have a close look at the skeg, and see if it bears an official looking stamp on one side. This will be lightly stamped, but in all the examples I've seen it'll be crytsl clear. It's a circle, and round the inside circumerence It'll have a refernce to C.I.E.S.S., with a number and an arrow. This tell you it came off one supplied to the military, the earliest ones being manufactured in 1942.

Without it in my hand I can't refine it down more than that.

Yes you could use it, but lubricate it carefully. Some owners have an oil gun, others remove a couple of oil nipplies and fill it with a trigger action can - takes a while. Use 140 grade oil, or even something a little thicker. On no account use grease.

The hole in the side of the water pum housing allows water to escape; that pump is a very powerful one.

The two holes that communicate with the exhaust outlet, well, you've got me there. Fot the life of me I can see no reason for them that's to do with the exhaust; maybe something clipped onto them?

Hope that helps..

mozart
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Post by mozart » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:47 pm

Thank for very detailed info

Housing has a number 266 and front cover 265.

The C.I.E.S.S + arrov also found. Under the arrow a small number 234

What sort of propeller can be assumed was used on such a motor?

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charlesp
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Post by charlesp » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:56 pm

Have a look at:

http://www.saving-old-seagulls.co.uk/102_models.htm

The prop on the older gearbox that you are describing would be a two blade one similar to the one in the top picture.

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Charles uk
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Post by Charles uk » Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:39 pm

I would have thought this gearbox would look at it's best with the 2 bladed "swept back prop" or the "bow tie" slightly later model, both of which would be right.

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charlesp
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Post by charlesp » Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:21 pm

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. I've always liked that 2 blade prop.

Nice to hear from you - are things going OK down there? How's the racing?

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albert
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Post by albert » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:14 pm

[quote="charlesp"]That's exactly what I'm suggesting. I've always liked that 2 blade prop.

I too have a 102 gearbox with oil nipples, but do not have that particular prop sadly, I now use the normal 102 2 blade which I polished to a shiny finish for better working. Wish I had that old prop!

I use SAE250, better than 140, almost no leakage.

Albert

mozart
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Post by mozart » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:02 pm

Further to all nice replies/comments on this issue I come back to the two holes on the side of the pump hose ( flange part of the lower end).
In my "military version" lower end I found that the impeller has 6 vanes
(impeller is a half closed type impeller) insted of the "civil version" with only 4 vanes ( this impeller is sort of an open paddle type impeller). Why the difference, you would assume the cooling process in a Seagull 102 is the same in a war time situation as in pease time, but mayby not in the Royal Navy?

Regarding the SAE 250 what sort of oili is that ( gear oil)?.

I have a new Bosch spark plug M5A sold to me as the best possible plug for a Seagull. Is there information awailable: is this a correct plug for the 102 Seagull?

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albert
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Post by albert » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:45 pm

SAE250 is a gearbox oil, a very heavy one. In Holland I know only 2 suppliers: Millers and Penrite. 140 will do too, but when the bearings are a bit sloppy or when used in tropical conditions as Seagull said, 250 is better.
Bosch M5A is the same as NGK A7. The best plug for your 102 is Champion D16 or NGK A6. I used an A7 for a while and that works too. As long as you do not use it at full throttle for long times or when it is very hot.

About the impeller which is in fact a rotor, I don't know too much. Ask Charles....
I think half closed is better than open. they better pump water at low revs, and that is what many of us know already: a102 pumps at almost tick over. Centuries, which have the open one, do not.

twostrokenut
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Post by twostrokenut » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:53 am

Have any of you gents used the very heavy oil that is used in the gearboxes of agricultural Power Harrows , this stuff can be " just about poured " , but has to be pumped into gearboxes with small filler holes.
I've used it with great effect on several vintage items that are always prone to the odd leak.

Andy.

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charlesp
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Post by charlesp » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:26 pm

Straying into unknown terriotry here.

About the 250 oil - I'm pretty sure that would work fine, especially in a warmer climate.

As regards the rotor, all I know is that wartime Seagulls pump exceedingly well. I reassembled my SD for the Ibsley show last year without a lower bearing, as the original was somewhere other than I thought ( Gives you a clue as to the chaotic state of my workshop)

When we started it a jet of water positively blasted out of the upper relief hole in the driveshaft tube - it must have sprayed 8 or 10 feet to the side. Just where the spectators were.

I think the extra vanes are a bit of overkill; that's probably the best way of describing this military feature.

mozart
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Post by mozart » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:49 pm

Still the question about the two holes.
Could it be that part of the spray is taken to the side at the pump housing so the spray coming out from the side below the cylinder i.e. out of the muffler/silencer/ is not be too strong?

All in all is it not a question of a heat distribution away from the cylinder area which means if too much pressure is taken throug the muffler the engine would be run too cold, and by distributing part of the flow to the side of the pump through the two holes this risk is eliminated?

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