There is such a thing as an unused Seagull.
There is such a thing as a terribly abused Seagull.
But most Seagulls come somewhere between the two.
For example my 1972 FP has a slight dent in the tank, about ten per cent of the "bronze" paint missing from the flywheel, a still legible tank transfer, some paint chipped from the tank and block and almost-intact chrome on the leg (slightly worn where the clamp pressure pad goes).
I reckon this is "normal" and part of its character, and I would not want it looking new. About like an Ancient British motorbike, or a Little Grey Fergie, in fact.
If it looked perfect, or the opposite, I would not feel as "comfortable" with it!
How do other people feel about this?
The right "patina" for a working Seagull...
Moderators: John@sos, charlesp, Charles uk, RickUK, Petergalileo
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Andrew Craig-Bennett
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:01 am
- Location: Woodbridge, Suffolk
The right "patina" for a working Seagull...
Que scais-je?
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Ian Malcolm
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:42 am
- Location: London, ENGLAND
Well there are honerable battle scars 
and then there is neglect. Personally, I stripped my Fourty Plus and fully cleaned and repainted the block because I was concerned about the rust. I also repainted the flywheel as it had rather more bare metal than paint and I could see a white powdery coating developing. Keeping the rust on various fasteners under control is an ongoing occupation. I haven't got round to touching up the paint on the gear case as it is fairly reasonable. Dont ask about the tank ;-( My old one looked good but developed a crack and the replacement looks like its off a Mad Max set.
If fully restored to showroom condition, most of us would be scared to get them wet, but if youi are hoping to get another 30 or 40 years life out of them, keeping them clean, a lick of paint and the occasional drop of oil or dab of grease will go a long way towards making that possible.
and then there is neglect. Personally, I stripped my Fourty Plus and fully cleaned and repainted the block because I was concerned about the rust. I also repainted the flywheel as it had rather more bare metal than paint and I could see a white powdery coating developing. Keeping the rust on various fasteners under control is an ongoing occupation. I haven't got round to touching up the paint on the gear case as it is fairly reasonable. Dont ask about the tank ;-( My old one looked good but developed a crack and the replacement looks like its off a Mad Max set. If fully restored to showroom condition, most of us would be scared to get them wet, but if youi are hoping to get another 30 or 40 years life out of them, keeping them clean, a lick of paint and the occasional drop of oil or dab of grease will go a long way towards making that possible.
The right patina . . . .
I'm pretty much with you Ian - I can't accept any corrosion and everything has to function correctly mechanically, with any previous abuses put to rights.
I tend to get the drive tubes and exhaust pipes re-chromed if they need it, and I replace nuts and bolts - I use Custom Fasteners in Newtown for stainless steel or chromed replacements in BSF sizes.
My let-down appearance wise is tanks - they remain pretty much as they were, and I try an improve by swapping if better ones come along.
I'm not a spit-and polish-merchant, and if I had immaculate motor, it would become more of an ornament than mine are presently!!
I do believe in using 'em! Rick
I tend to get the drive tubes and exhaust pipes re-chromed if they need it, and I replace nuts and bolts - I use Custom Fasteners in Newtown for stainless steel or chromed replacements in BSF sizes.
My let-down appearance wise is tanks - they remain pretty much as they were, and I try an improve by swapping if better ones come along.
I'm not a spit-and polish-merchant, and if I had immaculate motor, it would become more of an ornament than mine are presently!!
I do believe in using 'em! Rick
Re: The right "patina" for a working Seagull...
I agree... I absolutely agree... That is why my hair becomes grey and I do not care. That is why my old BMW's and my Seagull, my old tractor, my veteran motorbikes look as their age is.
That's life, isn't it?
That's life, isn't it?
A matter close to my heart.
I regard my flock as I do my women. A major scar needs treatment. The nicks and grazes of honourable wear need respect. I have a fully rechromed 102 at home, with polished gearbox and a tank that has been lovingly restored (lead loading, all the rest); it doesn't really cut the mustard against its neighbour in the rack which is just, well, cared for.
It's 'Horses for Courses' with Seagulls, there is no right answer, just what feels good.
So I'm with Rick on this - treat the rust, arrest further decay, and regard the thing as an old friend.
Back to the women analogy - I've grown away from silicone!
Regards
Charles
I regard my flock as I do my women. A major scar needs treatment. The nicks and grazes of honourable wear need respect. I have a fully rechromed 102 at home, with polished gearbox and a tank that has been lovingly restored (lead loading, all the rest); it doesn't really cut the mustard against its neighbour in the rack which is just, well, cared for.
It's 'Horses for Courses' with Seagulls, there is no right answer, just what feels good.
So I'm with Rick on this - treat the rust, arrest further decay, and regard the thing as an old friend.
Back to the women analogy - I've grown away from silicone!
Regards
Charles
There more Seagulls in my life than there are women, which is perhaps understandable and indeed a good thing.
But seriously I have been thinking about the 'patina' subject quite a lot recently. In a former existence I was restoring antique weapons - flintlocks and such, and the preservation of an existing patina (and indeed the creation of matching one on new components) was a major part of the task.
Much of the skill is in knowing what it looked like new - and with the matter in hand we can be fairly sure much of the time. Producing that new finish, rather that an obviously 'tarted up' one, is difficult. I for one have yet to find a good match for gearbox paint - everything I try is too metallic or too glossy or both.
I'm still trying to work out whether the wartime models were shiny chrome - all that I have seen have plated driveshaft legs - but are they replacements? It seem so unlikely that a bit of military kit would be shiny! I have a theory that they were painted, and most of the survivors have replacement legs because the originals rusted away...
By the way, Rick, did you get my PM?
Charles
But seriously I have been thinking about the 'patina' subject quite a lot recently. In a former existence I was restoring antique weapons - flintlocks and such, and the preservation of an existing patina (and indeed the creation of matching one on new components) was a major part of the task.
Much of the skill is in knowing what it looked like new - and with the matter in hand we can be fairly sure much of the time. Producing that new finish, rather that an obviously 'tarted up' one, is difficult. I for one have yet to find a good match for gearbox paint - everything I try is too metallic or too glossy or both.
I'm still trying to work out whether the wartime models were shiny chrome - all that I have seen have plated driveshaft legs - but are they replacements? It seem so unlikely that a bit of military kit would be shiny! I have a theory that they were painted, and most of the survivors have replacement legs because the originals rusted away...
By the way, Rick, did you get my PM?
Charles
hello
I have never given it a thought, that a piece of machineri could get a patina, and not just come to look lige junk. Patina I always related to wood, leather and things like that. But reading your comments on the subject, I came to think about som old motors in ships, often has a fine patina, well maintained, but not looking like new.
Buying an old motor like I did, made me think, how careless many people are with things. I can see it on the tank, the screwes, where they newer used a proper screwdriver, all nuts , are more or less round, from using incorrect tools. This I think, takes away any illusion of patina, and good maintenens.
I think many goes like this " don't use force, grab a bigger hammer "
I have never given it a thought, that a piece of machineri could get a patina, and not just come to look lige junk. Patina I always related to wood, leather and things like that. But reading your comments on the subject, I came to think about som old motors in ships, often has a fine patina, well maintained, but not looking like new.
Buying an old motor like I did, made me think, how careless many people are with things. I can see it on the tank, the screwes, where they newer used a proper screwdriver, all nuts , are more or less round, from using incorrect tools. This I think, takes away any illusion of patina, and good maintenens.
I think many goes like this " don't use force, grab a bigger hammer "
The right "patina" for a working seagull
Hi Charles,
Just to pick up on a point in your last post. Most of the wartime material could till have its original drive legs etc.even if painted. The army painted everything to prevent shine in wartime and this was continued long after the war "if it moves salute it; if it doesn't paint it" was the motto. The army ones I remember from the 60's still had the chrome under the paint which you could see from scratches from general use and the extra protection would not do any harm in preserving them. would be nice if the point could be followed up tho.
Regards, Alan
Just to pick up on a point in your last post. Most of the wartime material could till have its original drive legs etc.even if painted. The army painted everything to prevent shine in wartime and this was continued long after the war "if it moves salute it; if it doesn't paint it" was the motto. The army ones I remember from the 60's still had the chrome under the paint which you could see from scratches from general use and the extra protection would not do any harm in preserving them. would be nice if the point could be followed up tho.
Regards, Alan
Alan L Gordon
Hi Alan
Good point - chrome as supplied and painted later. That may be the answer - but Rick has a point - why chrome it if its not intended to last?
Indeed was it chrome at all - maybe nickel? But good old British Seagull did spend some time finishing their products; eg the gearboxes on early 102s that were polished until someone realised it took manpower to do that so then they sprayed them.And the tiller arms on 102s and early forties - brass that was then lacquered black. I bet most restorers out there leave them as polished brass!.
I'm trying to contact Andy to get him to heck out his collection of early Seagulls- just to see if the driveshaft casings are any different. I must say I'd be pleased to fint that a lick of paint is all that's required on the one I'm playing with - earlier in this thread we discussed the 'new' look of fresh plating being at odds with the patina on the rest of a motor that's older than I am.
Charles
Good point - chrome as supplied and painted later. That may be the answer - but Rick has a point - why chrome it if its not intended to last?
Indeed was it chrome at all - maybe nickel? But good old British Seagull did spend some time finishing their products; eg the gearboxes on early 102s that were polished until someone realised it took manpower to do that so then they sprayed them.And the tiller arms on 102s and early forties - brass that was then lacquered black. I bet most restorers out there leave them as polished brass!.
I'm trying to contact Andy to get him to heck out his collection of early Seagulls- just to see if the driveshaft casings are any different. I must say I'd be pleased to fint that a lick of paint is all that's required on the one I'm playing with - earlier in this thread we discussed the 'new' look of fresh plating being at odds with the patina on the rest of a motor that's older than I am.
Charles