data on 102 motors

[headdownarseup]

CALLING ALL 102 OWNERS



Some of you may (or not) know, i am trying to compile information on 102 motors (round block) from 1945/6 up till the early 1980's

From the limited data i have already on some motors, there is definitely a pattern starting to form.But i still need a lot more. There are still a lot of blank spaces that need filling.
In time, i will be putting up a "list" of known 102's that will hopefully show some of the detail changes, both big and small, throughout the decades.
Anybody with a 102,built after WW2 (1945 onwards) even if its just a cranckcase or not complete, i'm sure it will be able to tell something.
(Doesn't even matter if you think its just scrap! dead or alive, it will tell me something)
So with your help, i can then try and piece together snippets of information that will end up answering a lot of questions.

Its probably easier to pm me directly as there are quite a few questions that i will ask you.
Slowly but surely we'll get there

Thanks in advance

jon

[AusAnzani]

In case you hadn't already grabbed it from my 102 Confusion thread, AD 44516 (also stamped SD on upper crank case), lives in Melbourne Australia.

Number on gearbox is 36733.

Regards,

Edit: Gear box number added.

[Adrian Dale]

there must be 1000's of these around, mine is AD 19647 fairly original including tank with original transfers. Just let us know what you want to list and ill pm the details to you

AJ

[headdownarseup]

pm me direct guys as there are literally loads and loads of questions.

there are patterns forming with the earlier motors, some have core plugs and some don't.(possible cylinder change at some point)
some have had later gearbox swaps and a LOT are still mostly original all bar a couple of "later additions" (going by the data so far)

from the mid 50's onwards things are starting to make more sense.
thats as much as i can tell you so far!

more data please


ADRIAN i agree, there must be literally thousands of them still out there, all with something to tell. (wait and see what happens with all of this)


jon

[Michael]

Jon,
Perhaps it would be a good idea to list out the features you would like us to report back to you on - a checklist of sorts. I have 102's, but do not know what sort of details you are looking for.

[headdownarseup]

OK, perhaps i should try and simplify things! not easy but here goes

the specifics of it are as follows:


engine serial number (the full number as you see it on the crankcase including "R" for refurbishment) even if it is just a crankcase you have or a dismantled pile of bits and bobs it should tell me something (hopefully)

cylinder specs. hex head,slotted or no core plug? any cast numbers in the cylinder? (i am particularly interested in the very early engines 1945/6 and whether there are any "extra" casting marks or numbers usually found on the side opposite the carb, some have cast numbers and some do not. )

early or late type carb fitted? (46n early and late or very later 400 series) if it has a villiers carb? very unlikely (show us pics.)
inlet cowl "seagull" "seagull patent" or later type with or without choke?

fuel tank brass or steel? bayonet or screw top? (does it have any of its original decal? has it been refurbed and which decal is currently fitted)
tank mountings cast aluminium or brass(often plated and later chromed?) and later still some( i think) were steel to take the later silver century shaped tank

fuel cap brass(chrome plated?) aluminium or bakelite?

fuel line metal or plastic (there could be 2 types of metal pipe fitted! for the sake of this we'll call them SD or U does that make sense?)
plastic fuel lines there could be 2, either clear or black (possibly 3,a very early part braided type or clear/reinforced plastic with a metal 90 degree fitting under the carb)
which side is the float bowl fitted? (depends on the fuel line fitted)

type of throttle fitted 3 possible types here "long arm amal SD type" "turn up stamped with amal" or later straighter type (have also seen some villiers short and long versions fitted)

ignition fitted
villiers early or later type baseplate? (square ended screw like the SD's or later shorter screw that secures the baseplate)
mag cover plain "in" or "for" i've also seen wipac covers on villiers?
or later wipac (gold top)
or very late electronic wipac (sometimes with built in recoil mechanism)
plug cap short or long (black or brown) sometimes KLG! (quite rare i think) please tell me if you know different. (pics will help)
ht lead with or without resistor? early slotted or later cross type fitting around the retainer?

transom mount fitted!
"c" clamps early versions were sometimes solid aluminium, "hollow" or "holed" bronze or very much later with an FNR type transom mount with reverse lock?
centre section bronze or aluminium?
thrust block bronze,aluminium (or very early steel with no catch?) bronze and ali versions are mostly the same design with slight differences in the catch that wraps around the torgue tube. (unless you can tell me differently then please put up some pics.)
or later more common white plastic? (with or without a latch)

gearbox
water inlet holes or slots? (how many holes?)
nipples 1, 2 or 3? (which side of the gearbox are they port/starboard as viewed from inside the boat) or none?
clutch or direct drive (this should correspond with your serial number, if it doesn't then its had a gearbox swap)

pump housing SD straight out back or "sub ejector" or later type sub ejector (i think) have a cut out section for the clutch rod instead of a hole?

prop lots of different types but should correspond with the serial number (unless its been swapped?)

PLUS (+) gearboxes are fairly straight forward to catalogue as there are only a few types as are the props for these boxes.


so there you have it!
from this we should start to see specific time periods where things changed and on what model type.(it might also tell us about changes in other motors in the line up i.e 40's and centurys and silver centurys)
from the data so far, there are patterns forming (particularly with the earlier motors pre 1950)

its all very early days yet with all this, but some of it is starting to make sense.
but i really do need more data guys.
it'll be worth it in the long run!

thanks in advance

jon

[Stelios_Rjk]

Excel!

One that you will send to anyone that requests it

[Hugz]

(which side of the gearbox are they port/starboard as viewed from inside the boat)

jon

That gave me a chuckle, never considered port or starboard was dependent on where I was viewing. When on a starboard reach if I look astern will I then be on a port reach?

Nice long list there. Should get to the bottom of things.

[Charles uk]

Jon you might be opening Pandora's box! the other Charles & I estimated post war 102 production from C & D's to ED's at somewhere between 100,000 & 200,000, the fact that several foundrys were used by Seagull for their cast iron work depending on price & that the foundrys seemed to own the patterns/tooling, might cause several anomilies in the cylinder style progression.

This type of research might have better results where production figures were lower, as in the case of Marstons, little model 40's, the loop charged models & the QUB range.

I expect your best response will come from the UK followed a long way back by the Southern Hemisphere Colonies.

Good luck.

[headdownarseup]

well, i knew that the 102's were made in prolific numbers and there are still HUGE numbers of them around today.
as previously mentioned, there are a lot of "anomolies" or queeries. the cylinders being just one of them (see brass core plugs?)
we might be able to get to the bottom of it, then again? who knows!

from the very earliest long waterjacket 102's up to around 1954/5 there are maybe a dozen or so queeries of my own that i would like to try and answer. dont get me wrong, this could take some time to compile most of the important info. the more interest we get in this, the quicker the details start to come together. (i knew it wasn't a 5 minute thing)
i'm certainly not expecting to get this done in a month! (no way) more like a couple of years once i have a good spread of numbers for the years 1945/55 , thereafter things get a bit easier to catalogue.

i did have a hunch that BS had a few foundries to make the cylinders (hence why we see differences in quality control between a lot of them, see previous posts on FV's etc) and possibly why we find a few motors kicking around today that have been left in people's garages for donkeys years, hardly used, as they were an absolute PITA to try and start.


lets just see where this takes us. it might show a few things that were missed, then again it might not

i remain hopefull that at least some of the "blanks" can be filled.

jon

[Hugz]

AD 2800

Hex head core plug.
Cast no. 5 digit ending in 9A (painted over too often to read)
Amal Carb 46N seagull cowl no choke.
Bare brass tank. Screwed alloy cap with brass slotted knurled breather screw.
Brass fuel line, modified with filter. Float bowl rear.
Tank mount brass original one side, later homemade the other (I need a brass original carb side!)
SD type throttle lever.
Villiers mag, plain cover. Position screw non original.
No resistor on plug lead. Slotted mag connector. later push on plug cap.
Std transom bracket with holed G's and plastic thrust block.
Straight out exhaust. 3 nipples tiller side. 3 hole inlet either side.
Incorrect three blade clover prop.
4216 machine no. box and end plate.
Brass tiller.

[headdownarseup]

nice one hugo
your data has now been logged
thanks

jon

[AusAnzani]

Jon,

I reckon Stelios is on the ball. Excel is the way forward. Irrespctive of the orientation, you will be able to filter either the columns or rows to see (quite clearly) for which serial number range features remain consistent and at what serial number they change.

If you need any help setting that up, don't hesitate to yell out.

Regards,
"The other Greek"

[Hugz]

AD 6809

Slotted core plugs
Cast no... rusted off (anyone got a spare block?)
Carb and throttle lever missing.
Chromed... yes... one of those mythical chromed seagull tanks. Round.
Plastic fuel line with ewert tap.
Tank supports chromed. Screwed metal cap with slotted chrome knurled breather screw. Spread sheila anti loose cap spring
Villiers mag. Plain cover. Brass nut (yay) Square ended location screw
No suppressor on lead. Push on Lodge plug cap. Slotted mag connector.
Std transom bracket. G's channeled bronze or brass, Thrust block steel with steel catch. Remains of chain but no pin. L shaped brass thumb screws.
Straight out exhaust. Three nipples tiller side. Bow tie prop. Three holes either side. 6934 0n end cap only (who pinched me number?)
Extended (gal?) tiller arm.
Painted brass water pipe.
48/49

ps AD2800 has brass water pipe.

[Stelios_Rjk]

Regards,
"The other Greek"

Cheers Spiro!!