New (to me) 40+

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NaughtyBits
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Re: New (to me) 40+

Post by NaughtyBits »

Unless I misread, I think Charles UK was simply describing for readers how to salvage good sections of the drive shaft and re-use as the top & bottom 4" sections of a joining bar - rather than throwing away the whole shaft for the sake of a shot, rusted or rounded out bottom section - which is by far the most commonly found state that would cause someone to seek to replace.

No where did I see him suggest keeping a drive shaft that was completely shot and paper thin throughout it's length - which I personally have never seen either (but that's neither here nor there)...

Either way - good to know Sheridan now have them back in stock, thanks seagull 101.
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Re: New (to me) 40+

Post by headdownarseup »

Perhaps Charles has completely misunderstood what i was trying to say with impellers and driveshafts so i'll have another go at this just to try and clear up any confusion.

Forget about the older tubes with a thinner wall section as there's generally only 2 types of impellers fitted to these and that's aluminium or bronze.

That's NOT what i was describing.


DRIVE SHAFTS/PLASTIC IMPELLERS:
Imagine a conventional sized drive tube with a rusty bottom third (fairly typical for many gulls these days) and try to fit a new plastic impeller onto this rusty tube? It's not going to fit very well because of the extensive pitting. Trust me it's a very sloppy fit. An option would be to have the rusty third at the top (next to the crankshaft) as it's all the same inner dimension anyway. Now there's less rust at what was the original top end of the tube (nice and oily up there) you might be able to fit a new impeller onto a section of the tube that still retains most of its original EXTERNAL dimensions.
I have seen a few rusty drive shafts with some sort of epoxy literally holding the plastic impeller in place because the tube was THAT rusty.
Older thinner walled tubes with the aluminium or bronze impellers seem to be fitted with a split pin holding everything in position and seem to have a much snugger fit, it seems that quite a lot of these thinner walled tubes were once plated with something which might resist a lot of the corrosion in the first place and less chance of splitting an impeller when the drive shaft eventually fills up with corrosion and muck (which they all seem to do)
As i've said before i don't personally like the idea of ramming a length of round bar inside these tubes as part of a repair, but if that's what it takes with some of them then so be it. Nothing quite like having a good replacement on hand just in case it all goes pear shaped on you. Been there and done that often enough.

Not wishing to be mean here but perhaps Charles is a little out of touch with some things and should spend a bit more time looking and he'll see that there are quite a lot of seagulls being broken up for spare parts quite regularly before criticising some of our comments. It might go against the grain sometimes but that's life. If some of us can benefit from some of these parts then that has to be a win win situation all round surely. It's the way of the world nowadays. Supply and demand for all sorts of things seagull related. After all it keeps a lot of older seagulls going for a bit longer.I'm just saying as i'm fairly certain quite a lot of us on here have bought spare parts like this before for a rebuild but are too afraid to own up. It's not a crime.

But we should never forget our primary source for spares and that's John of course. Where would we be without him.
Secondly, Sheridan Marine do have a huge amount of new spares on the shelf already, and that includes brand new drive shafts for most seagulls. (shame that 102's aren't quite as well catered for :cry: )






Back on topic with 40+ seagulls.
Yeah, good little motors. Loads of them about and provided it's been looked after and had a little tlc lavished on it once in a while they should last pretty well. But, like many gulls out there they are not immune to the tin worm.

Jon
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Charles uk
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Re: New (to me) 40+

Post by Charles uk »

You forget Jon that we are are talking to people all over the world, see how much it costs to buy a new drive shaft for a WSPCL when you live in New Zealand or Bermuda & have to pay shipping & import duty, £38 increases to over £50 & takes 2 weeks to get there, a £10 simple repair starts to look very attractive.

The repair section has to go firmly inside the box sections to ensure that the drive shaft remains straight after welding!
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
headdownarseup
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Re: New (to me) 40+

Post by headdownarseup »

Yes i realise that Chas. but at today's prices a new drive shaft seems to be a much better option in the long run rather than trying to repair something that's already weakened by corrosion from long term use. Not that there's much in the way of torque coming down this shaft i still don't like the idea of round bar as a method of repair, but after seeing a few that are repaired like this it would appear to be an ok fix. Not my cup of tea though. Logistical complications aside, i can see this method of repair as a relatively simple one to perform but how long will this sort of repair actually last before it breaks again? This is my main concern with this method of repair. Weight is another concern.
It seems that price comes into conversation again, but pound for pound if you're the sort of person that regularly uses a seagull outboard in salt water then a new drive shaft is looking a better option if you can afford it that is, otherwise repair and maintain.

Just my thoughts on this as there's a lot of rusty relics out there with similar woes that will eventually end up the same way, either broken up for spares or if it's a cherished gull repaired one way or the other.


Jon
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Charles uk
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Re: New (to me) 40+

Post by Charles uk »

I haven't heard of anyone using the round bar method in the UK, apart from me in some of my race engines.

Most seem to use the kit that John Williams sells, a 3/8" square repair piece.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
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Re: New (to me) 40+

Post by headdownarseup »

Now that we have talked about how to repair a broken/rusty drive shaft, how do we get over the issue of fitting a replacement impeller.
I realise that this isn't strictly necessary on every rebuild but there will be occasions when there just isn't enough material left on the shaft for the impeller to be fitted well enough. What then?

Jon
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Charles uk
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Re: New (to me) 40+

Post by Charles uk »

Let us know which Seagulls could suffer from this problem, so that everyone doesn't have to worry that it might be their's.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
RickUK
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Re: New (to me) 40+

Post by RickUK »

I can't imagine a situation where there isn't enough material to fit and locate an impeller, or if so, the shaft is pretty far gone!

If this scenario does exist, the other option would be to stick the impeller on what was the upper end of the shaft and upend the thing?
headdownarseup
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Re: New (to me) 40+

Post by headdownarseup »

That was my thinking as well Rick. Up end the tube so there's a bit more material for a tighter fit.

The only reason i ask this question is because i spend some time in my shed stripping down old gearboxes and happen to see this sort of thing first hand. I bought a job lot of different gearboxes with their tubes still attached a while ago, all sorts from 102's to century direct drive to 40 plus, some more modern sealed boxes for 40's and century's etc. and i'm still going through it nearly 3 years later :roll:

I don't think that this level of corrosion is restricted to any 1 particular motor type as from what i've seen most are fairly rusty to begin with. Some fare better than others it's true, but not having the rest of the motor for comparison i can only assume that what i've stripped apart had a hard life somewhere along the line. I think it's fair to say that newer motors (late 70's onwards) will possibly have less corrosion than older motors. I couldn't possibly say what long term saltwater useage would do to a typical seagull drive shaft, but provided the motor is flushed frequently in fresh water it can only help to slow down the ravages of rust.

I think i'm right in saying that the century and 40 impellers have the same internal measurement to fit onto the shaft don't they, but the blades of the impeller are a different length between a century and 40.
Anything in the FV/P,LS-LM etc seem to be different again with their thinner walled shafts and different impellers. Oddly though, most of the "little 40" drive shafts i've played with look as though they were plated with something in the past and still retain a good level of non rusted material on the shaft. Full of crud inside the drive tubes mind you but externally in quite good shape.

Certainly no need for anyone to rush out and buy a new drive shaft just yet, but it wouldn't do any harm for a sneaky peak once in a while just for peace of mind. I don't wish to start any scaremongering here but i'm remembering the occasion when one of our members had an issue with his elderly 102 and the drive shaft literally broke in half and lost all drive to the gearbox.
It can happen despite everything you can see on the outside of the motor appearing in reasonably good shape. After all, you'd only ever see this corrosion if the motor were dismantled for inspection, but how many of us go to the lengths of dismantling our motors every few years for a closer look? Not that many i would think, but seeing that many of these motors are now getting on in years and with a dubious maintenance regime thrown in for good measure you can understand my concerns with this.

Here's a thing, we take for granted that our seagull worked perfectly the last time we used it. Now this could have been several years ago since it was last used but in storeage all sorts of corrosion can take place in the areas that are out of sight. Case in point with a drive shaft. Out of sight out of mind.
On the whole though a seagull is generally as tough as old boots and will probably keep going for a good while yet before anything drastically goes wrong with it so there's no need to panic guys :P

Jon
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Hugz
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Re: New (to me) 40+

Post by Hugz »

You should write a book Jon. You would be on the second or third edition by now ....
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Nudge
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Re: New (to me) 40+

Post by Nudge »

We are into fixing anything here in New Zealand!

When you see the prices of some of the crap that people are trying to sell and say it is usefull! :roll:
rusted gull.JPG
Ok now I'm not saying that I would buy this, as the only thing that may be usefull would be the fuel tank (maybe). But you see my point about the cost of things!
"THE KING OF BLING"!
Is it better to over think, than not think at all?
headdownarseup
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Re: New (to me) 40+

Post by headdownarseup »

That in my eyes could be a good source for spares if it comes apart without too much fuss. Is that an LS?
I can see a fuel tank,powerhead, exhaust tube, gearbox and prop,transom bracket,tiller arm,throttle lever,throttle cable,fuel line maybe even half a carb all ripe for salvage on there. The drive tube is shot to bits as is the drive shaft by the looks of it, but this is the sort of thing that could breathe life into 2 or 3 more LS's with missing parts. £36 or $70 NZ might sound like a lot of money for a pile of crap, but we've seen all too often that motors get broken up for spares and the value of spares on their own seem to command a much higher price than a complete motor. The way of the world i suppose.

That's one thing i find interesting with this hobby.
How other folks get around certain problems that would absolutely scupper some people, and yet to others it's down to their ingenuity that keeps these old gulls going.

I guess it's unfortunate for you guys on the other side of the world that shipping costs play such a big part in what you do over there.
It's somewhat easier for us in the UK that we CAN just pop down to our local supplier or buy online the bits right off the shelf if we needed.
At the end of the day it boils down to how much you'd be willing to spend in time and money resurrecting an old seagull. Only YOU will know if it's too expensive as there will always be somebody else out there with deeper pockets than you.

Bottom line with me is i'm just a tight arse. :lol:

All good fun


Jon
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