AC Authenticity

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fleetingcontact
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Re: AC Authenticity

Post by fleetingcontact »

It's not boring!

The water pump housing is a sub ejector. I've considered going tor the earlier type but again all pics I've come across say different so I abandoned the idea. I have a bow-tie prop so that will do. Painted or polished for this item? I'm thinking polished.

The gearbox I have is holed not slotted.

There are two re-chromers in reaching distance of me but they both want money in large amounts so up till now I have procrastinated. But it has to be done. There is a lot of variance in the quality of the service offered, however.

The tank isn't a bayonet type (unsurprisingly) and I have a alloy cap that, yes, I have spent ages obsessively polishing...I've only ever seen one type of alloy cap though.

I bought some decals a while back - the 'Flying Gull' with the three items for the reverse side. You're going to tell me that's not right I think...but they look the best... :oops:

The next thing I will buy is a camera.

Thanks for the input. Appreciated.

Martin.
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Re: AC Authenticity

Post by headdownarseup »

Martin

I'm glad you don't think this boring. Some might say otherwise though! :roll:

The "flying gull" decal is spot on for a 102 of this age. The sailor man decal came along a little bit afterwards so nothing wrong there i'm glad to say. :P

Aluminium fuel caps are basically the same spec with the exception of the "ears" with which you use to grip it to turn as they come in 2 lengths, short (flat top) or long (rounded top) This is what Jeremy has labelled "little ears" or "big ears" and nothing at all to do with Noddy :lol: The brass vent in the middle of the cap has either a narrow slot or a slightly wider slot. From a distance you'd barely notice, but to some of the purists it's quite a big deal. For a better description of this take a look at Jeremy's listing of "little model 40's" on the main SOS pages. Pics will help explain things a lot better than me.

Yep, when it comes to re-chroming it's worth shopping around to get the best price. It's not cheap by any means, but the end result will speak volumes i'm sure. Best of luck with your pursuit for a reputable firm. As and when you do manage to find one you must give them some strict instructions to leave the last inch or so of the drive tube alone. The thickness of the plating is quite critical at the lower end of the drive tube where it fits inside the casting of the pump housing. It's a tight fit getting the tube inside the pump housing at the best of times, and with "extra" plating down there it makes the job even more difficult to reassemble everything without fracturing a delicate piece of casting. The pump housings will take a little tiny bit of stretching but any more could prove disastrous, so probably best to play things safe here or you could easily end up wrecking your freshly polished pump housing.

I'm guessing that from your description of your 5 figured serial numbered 102 it hopefully has slotted core plugs in the cylinder as well. Nice if it still has its original cylinder, but not the end of the world if it doesn't. If this 102 of yours is going to end up as "eye candy" on display then why not polish the entire thing for your viewing pleasure. Nowt wrong with that in my eyes. 8)
I'd much prefer to use some of mine once in a while. There's quite often somebody around that will strike up a conversation with you whilst out on the water over a handsome looking outboard such are these.
The flying gull decal was one such conversation starter i had with a gentleman a year or two back when i went fishing with my boys. At least some things are hard to forget with some folks. All good though.


Jon
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Re: AC Authenticity

Post by headdownarseup »

Martin
does your 102 look anything like this one?
Regulars will have seen these pics from a while back so this might be a second viewing for some.

This is one of mine and not a million miles apart in the serial number if yours is AC14685 .(wink)
This is AD14088 but a direct drive, although the spec of yours hopefully is broadly the same.
As you see it in the pics is as i picked the motor up from the seller after a quick jet wash to get rid of years of dust and grottiness all over it. The throttle cable is wrong i know, but you get the general idea.
You'll notice 1 nipple in the gearbox, sub ejector pump housing and bow tie prop. Everything we've been discussing all fits together. 8) I have yet to strip it down and renovate it, but as is it runs well enough(once the ht lead is fitted) but in need of some repair to the aluminium around the water inlets to the gearbox. The rest should either paint or polish up quite readily. (notice some of the missing chrome as well :cry: :roll: ) Quite a common thing nowadays unless you're willing to pay big bucks to get it sorted properly. Worth it in my opinion unless it's already in exceptional untouched condition unlike this one of mine.

I have a slightly older AC identical to this in every way except for the clutched gearbox. Blow up the pics if it helps you uncover some of the mysteries with these older 102's.
I can go back even older with hex-headed core plugs in the cylinder as well and equally as good looking as any of these, but the specs are a bit different with the older ones.
I can go a bit younger too with no nipples on the gearbox and a broadly similar spec.



This seagull bug can bite pretty HARD at times, and as far as i know there is no known cure other than a straight jacket and a spell inside a padded room! :lol:

Jon
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fleetingcontact
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Re: AC Authenticity

Post by fleetingcontact »

Hi again Jon

Based on what your description I would say the fuel cap is of the little ears variety...I'll bone up on the Little Forty section when I'm not so tired.

I know this won't go down so well with some but, as far as water pump housings go, I discovered not all driveshaft tubes were created equal when I tried to fit a more decent than average tube to a fixed forty and it didn't want to play...my solution was to carefully abrade the interior of the casting till it bludy well did...so I'm not terribly afraid if the chroming process produced a similar result - but maybe it won't.

So what's left? The tiller will have to live with a rubber-type grip, but I have a perfect throttle lever to give to it, I could give it either a Lodge or 8-com plug, and I've sourced most nuts and bolts in stainless. Should I use the originals instead? I have a recoil kit but it's damn ugly. And the lettering on the flywheel cover has all but disappeared. The carb is the one it came with and has the type of compensator with no choke shutter. However I've not investigated the internals much but I expect cleaning is all it will need. Good news about the about the decals, thanks for that. The original cylinder it is, and looks to be in nice condition, but I have not yet checked it or anything else for tolerance. No detectable play anywhere though and it seemed to show a decent amount of compression. I'm less optimistic about the coil situation but one thing at a time. If at the end the coil(s) I have are all u/s but the rest is up to snuff then maybe I'll buy a new one.

I'm mostly doing it for the exercise, I'll sell it when it's done, and I don't expect to make anything on it, just hoping I break even. But as I see it there's no point doing it at all if it doesn't work (and look) as Mr Marston intended. To be honest though I like my other 102 more because no-one seems bothered about late examples so I feel I have more of a licence to do as I please with it and not be too bothered about horriginality...I've been doing some more on that one today, and I won't get around to the AC till it is done. So I promise pics of the later (and finished) 102 together with a 'mock-up' of the AC at that time.

The pics of your fixed-drive are great and confirms a few details for me - thanks Jon - but one last question - is the large washer on the end of the tiller plain brass or it plated? What a straight-looking tank! The goblins in my head would want to clean it up if it were mine though...

Cheers.
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Re: AC Authenticity

Post by headdownarseup »

I'm glad you approve of my rather original looking fuel tank. I quite like the look of something that has a certain patina to it, and for this tank at least all i shall be doing with it is a light tidy up of any missing black paint and a touch up here and there of any gold with a final coat of clear lacquer. The retaining straps in time will either get replaced for stainless or good second hand ones as and when they become available. As far as i can make out to date the flywheel covers for these earlier ignitions didn't have any scripting on them, just plain. The pics of my AD that were taken at the time i first acquired the motor show it with a later type ignition and has since been swapped with something more in keeping of its age.(it actually came with the original magneto and cover when i bought it which was a bonus for me) A bit later on in production in the mid 50's you begin to see scripted covers with "the best outboard motor in the world" which later got changed to "for the world", so yours having virtually no scripting left on it is probably not such a bad thing after all :P Along with changes to scripting on covers, the ignitions themselves also changed slightly throughout the years. (Jeremy's listing should show some of these changes nicely)

As for nuts and bolts there's not much wrong with using stainless these days, but for me originality with my own motors is quite important, even if they are a tad rusty they can still be cleaned up pretty good. (it's all about patina with a lot of mine)

I've come across the problem of swapping drive tubes from one donor engine onto a working "resto" job as well. As mentioned previously, some of the castings on the pump housings will take a degree of stretching to get a "foreign" tube to fit, but go carefully as once they've reached that stage where they're almost at the point of fracture it can go horribly wrong very quickly. Gently does it!

Coils i think by now are fairly fragile things. If it still works then great, if not a new coil is the way to go along with some of the grief of removing stubborn nuts and bolts and studs to get the job done. Plenty of videos about to help.

The big tiller washer you mention, again as far as i've been able to work out to date seems to be chromed/nickel plated. Brass washers i think belong on the wartime 102's.

What spark plug you decide to use is up to you. I like the older take apart ones like the Lodge or 8com versions, but a modern plug will probably give you greater reliability all round and they're easier to find on the internet or via John at SOS.

With a lot of things seagull related, if you're willing to sit and wait patiently you'll eventually come across all the right bits for this restoration, including a tiller with the correct grip still attached to it. Rubber grips are ok if you have a preference for them, but for authenticities sake not for this age of 102. Rubber grips i reckon came in during the 60's, but as you've found out being a seagull a lot of bits fit straight on regardless of age or correctness.

If i might be so bold in correcting you slightly Martin, seagulls from this era were not labelled as Marston's as the company name had changed by this time to British Seagull, so for correctness anything made post war they're now called seagulls not Marston's.

Now, when you come to take things apart with your powerhead you'll hopefully find that all it will need is a good clean up and careful examination of the internals. I don't expect you'll have too much bother in there apart from maybe the water jacket being a little bit furred up like most of them by now. A word of caution though, resist the temptation of undoing the brass core plug. DON'T DO IT! You could easily fracture the surrounding cast iron of the engine block, trust me i've done it before and wished i'd left things alone!!! :oops: :roll: Better to mask off the core plug with tape if you're thinking of repainting the block.
As far as compression goes, anything above 50psi is a goer, anything less could be problematic. A 10:1 fuel mix should keep things where they need to be.

It's not only the golden oldie 102's i like the best cos i like them all. Even the more modern looking ones, if it's a 102 i'm bound to have a fondness for it.

All good, and if there's anything else i can help you with just yell. I'm never very far away :P

Jon

***************Post edited by Moderator CharlesP to remove personal reference
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Re: AC Authenticity

Post by RickUK »

Jon - your message of January 31st is a little misleading as regards re-plating of parts:

We are used to cheap prices for Seagull parts or services - for chrome plating, we enter the commercial world and their realities.

Unlike the common perception of just dunking items, re-finishing of old parts is a three stage process, including stripping of old coatings, re -polishing, and re-plating.

Stripping has to include hand wiring of parts, with a multi-sequence process of anodic and cathodic cleaning to remove oils and carbon etc. and stripping of the previous coating remnants,plus various rinsing stages. Platers who process old parts often need separate tanks for badly contaminated parts so as not to affect their regular commercial work.

Re-polishing will include several stages of linishing (abrasive belt) to remove pitting of the metal, and then buffing. It is at this stage that excess metal can be removed from a drive tube and cause loss of interference fit in the water pump housing, which is why the plater has to be instructed for the end two inches or so to be left untouched - preferably by means of a hand sketch, as any verbal instructions will not be passed on!

Depending on the depth of pitting and corrosion, the effect of removing the defects has to of course remove metal, which will show up against the untouched tube end, but be indistinguishable after reassembly.
Loss of metal at this stage cannot be easily be compensated for by the amount of plating. "Extra' plating does not occur.

Fitting a drive tube into water pump housing should always be tight - ensure the casting bore is free of any corrosion build-up before reassembly, grease the tube with copper grease or your preferred lubrication, open the casting a touch by reverse bolt (bolt in the opposing side to normal nipped up on a washer in the slot to expand it a little)

Outside of 'engineered' plating such as hard chrome, commercial platers subject parts to a standard process of flash copper, nickel plate, and chrome, each with their respective thicknesses determined by immersion time, where the amount of deposition at specific areas on parts is not controllable in terms of achieving a certain dimension.

Rick
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Re: AC Authenticity

Post by Charles uk »

Thanks for doing that Jon you almost saved me a job, but it would have been so much better if you knew what you were talking about.

From 1931 Marston outboards were called Marston Seagulls until 1938ish when Bristol Motor Boat Company changed their name to British Seagull.
The tank logos reflected this!

Up to just before the war all of these motors were fitted with rubber tiller arm grips, I've no idea, which of Seagulls other products you think had rubber grips in the 60's.

Rick UK posted sometime ago, a very informative post about the problems with having drive shaft tubes rechromed, which seems to be the exact opposite to the hazards you warn Fleetingcontact about, perhaps you should try getting one done & let us know after the event, rather than before!
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
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Re: AC Authenticity

Post by Oyster 49 »

The bullshit filter works! 8)
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fleetingcontact
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Re: AC Authenticity

Post by fleetingcontact »

Jon, thanks again for all your help. When I said 'as Mr Marston intended' it was a bit of humour really. Soichiro-san had little or nothing to do with the fabulous RC30 either, I expect.

Rick - do you remember the title of the thread CharlesUK referred to? I've had a bit of a search and been unable to find it. I expect this is because I can't use the search facility properly but hey there you go...thanks in advance.

*****************Sentence deleted by CharlesP Moderator - Profanity
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Charles uk
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Re: AC Authenticity

Post by Charles uk »

I'm sorry you found that rude, ask the more knowledgeable old timers weather they think my comments were inaccurate.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
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fleetingcontact
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Re: AC Authenticity

Post by fleetingcontact »

I do not doubt and have never doubted your technical knowledge.

I do think that you are often very rude indeed.

The other worrying part is that you find it a surprise.

Also breaking the third commandment seems to be worse that actual swear-words round here.
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Re: AC Authenticity

Post by charlesp »

Fleeting Contact - point taken, but please view my moderation as part of a work in progress.
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Re: AC Authenticity

Post by RickUK »

Hi Martin - I can't remember which thread my original information was on, but I imagine that I have repeated anything it contained in my entry above - my message of 2.58 pm today. Please let me know if I can offer any other useful info on this topic -- Rick.
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Re: AC Authenticity

Post by Oyster 49 »

Rick is a very knowledgeable person in this field , as he works in this field also.
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Re: AC Authenticity

Post by headdownarseup »

Post edited out


CharlesP (Moderator) - I've edited this whole post out. I started to remove the offensive personal references, but the task became very tedious as there were so many of them, and the resultant gaps made the thing completely unreadable.
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