Mine Won't Start Either....

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Polybus
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:42 am
Location: Port Douglas

Mine Won't Start Either....

Post by Polybus »

I'm currently trying to get FP I220J0 flying again.

For those that are interested - there are a few words and photos on the progress on my Website -

https://myshed.mooo.com/Seagull-FPI220J ... ation.html
FPI220J0 - Carby Side - Close Up.jpg
This picture is of course prior to cleaning.

I got the little fella in OK - but non-running condition. Completely stripped it, cleaned it, bit of paint here, bit of polish there and it came up reasonably well, and fired up pretty much straight away - ran well. Ran it in the test tank a number of times for up to 10 minutes at a time.

Then I had to go away for work, and now that I've come home - it won't start - kinda sorta.

Here are a list of signs/symptoms.

  • It will not start by pull start - Choke on or off - Throttle Full/Mid/Low
  • It will not start by Spinning it high speed with a Power Drill
  • It will start very easily by pull start if starter fluid/petrol is put in the spark plug hole
  • It will start very easily by pull start if starter fluid is sprayed into the Carby intake
  • Once it has started via starter fluid/petrol in cylinder, it will: run, and run quite well
  • Once it has ran for a minute or so, it will start very easily by pull start
  • Once it has been left to sit for more than about 2 hours, we go back to square one and it won't start.
  • Very good, bright blue spark
  • Timing seems good - locating screw is tightly in place
  • Compression OK - 70psi

My thoughts - clearly a carby issue:

Disassembled and cleaned the carb (twice) - Blew Carby Cleaner through it - Ultrasonic Cleaner - Blew out with compressed air (its clean)

No change.

I can trace the fuel
  • Comes out of the tank OK
  • Comes out the carby end of the fuel hose OK
  • Goes into the Carby OK
  • With the float bowl off, I can see the fuel running into the Carby OK -Can start & Stop the flow with the Petrol Tap on the fuel tank
  • Can also start and stop the flow by lifting the little lever the float lifts - so the needle and seat seem to be OK
  • With the Float Bowl in place - when I hit the tickler button, I will see fuel overflow out the float bowl hole
Still not starting.

??Leaking Crankcase? No vacuum? Prior to assembly I flattened the mating surfaces with 400 grit Wet and Dry on a sheet of glass, they looked very good, but despite that, sealed them with an anaerobic gasket sealer. Would the engine run well once it was going if there was a crankcase leak?

Air Leak between Block and Carby? Is there supposed to be some kind of gasket/O-Ring/Washer in the Carby intake side that seals here?

My gut feel is that for some reason, there is a lack of vacuum which, when pull starting, the low speed of crank rotation isn't sucking enough fuel through the carby to start, but I gave it a good try with a Power Drill at good revs, but still no luck - so that theory is probably completely wrong.

I'm a bit stumped!!

I will try another carby if/when I get my hands on one.

What is this new way that bloody Seagulls can drive us crazy?

Suggestions welcome :P
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never-outbored
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:39 pm
Location: kt245pd

Re: Mine Won't Start Either....

Post by never-outbored »

Interesting one, are you using the correct fuel mix for the jet in your carb as some have been switched around?
Polybus
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:42 am
Location: Port Douglas

Re: Mine Won't Start Either....

Post by Polybus »

Never-Outboard!! Brilliant!!!!

I have just come back to the computer after doing some more tests.....

I was feeling very pleased with myself for figuring out this issue - and as I was coming back to my computer I was thinking to myself - everyone on the forum will be well pleased with learning this - no-one will ever figure this out....

And lo and behold - there is just one reply - and never-outboard has hit it in one!

After my initial post I went back and looked at my Seagull sternly - muttered to it "We are not going to hurt each other are we?"

After having a think - I concluded its got to be fuel - nothing else - just fuel, so start at square one.

The fuel itself - its mixed at 10 to 1 and its reasonably fresh - maybe 5 months old at the most - more likely 3-4 months. I know old fuel can be a problem - not combustible enough to start/run the engine. But I don't think the fuel is old enough to cause dramas.

I also thought about the mix ratio - was there too much oil in the mix - thus making the fuel less combustible?

OK - what can I do about that? Off with the float bowl, empty the fuel out and fill it up manually with straight unleaded.

Screw the float bowl back on - pull - 3 pulls and she started right up!!

So - now I know its not the engine at all - its the fuel - which is a little embarrassing - a real rookie error - I just didn't think the fuel was old enough to be an issue....but it still may not be due to old fuel I guess - as never-outboard states - it may have already been converted to 25:1 and I am trying to run it at 10:1.

So to really isolate the cause - I will:

Pull out the needle and see if it has already been converted to 25:1

If yes - I will mix up some fresh 25:1 fuel and do a test - if it runs - the original issue was I was trying to run a 25:1 engine on 10:1 fuel
If no - I will mix up some fresh 10:1 fuel and do a test:
- if it runs - then the original not starting issue was probably due to old fuel (how embarrassing)
- if it doesn't run - back to square 1
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Charles uk
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:38 pm
Location: Maidenhead Berks UK

Re: Mine Won't Start Either....

Post by Charles uk »

No mention of cleaning & setting the points!
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
Polybus
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:42 am
Location: Port Douglas

Re: Mine Won't Start Either....

Post by Polybus »

They were cleaned and set as part of the rebuild.

Producing a nice big fat spark.

More info:

The needle is No: 3 - ie: fuel ratio of 10:1

But when I pulled it out, I found the small Needle retaining screw set to 2 1/2 full turns below level with the top of the slide.

I assume that would set the mixture very lean - possibly too lean to start the engine??
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never-outbored
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:39 pm
Location: kt245pd

Re: Mine Won't Start Either....

Post by never-outbored »

Yep 2 and a 1/2 turns below will definitely not help! Make sure it’s flush with the slide, run it at 10 to 1 and you’ll be laughing.
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never-outbored
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:39 pm
Location: kt245pd

Re: Mine Won't Start Either....

Post by never-outbored »

Next time you reassemble a carb, use a screwdriver :lol:
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beerjam
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:30 pm
Location: Headley, Hampshire
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Re: Mine Won't Start Either....

Post by beerjam »

I believe that once you have added two stroke oil to the fuel it degrades much faster than neat fuel. If that is true, then 10:1 mix must be worse than ever for rapid degradation.

However (there is always a however :roll: ) I have left 10:1 mix in both my Forty Plus motors for over 6 months and they have still started fine. Maybe different brands of fuel or oil "go off" quicker than others. In my case it is Texaco Unleaded plus Carlube 2-Stroke Marine Engine Oil.

Cheers, Mark
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never-outbored
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:39 pm
Location: kt245pd

Re: Mine Won't Start Either....

Post by never-outbored »

Degraded fuel would explain issues with starting and yet being able to run on its own once it’s going as well.
Polybus
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:42 am
Location: Port Douglas

Re: Mine Won't Start Either....

Post by Polybus »

Well - I've got my answer - so r hubt of

Fresh fuel/oil mix at 10:1 and she's starting and running wonderfully.

The only other change was adjusting the carby needle retaining screw out 2 and 1/2 turns to sit flush with the top of the slide.

So it was old, degraded fuel.

How embarrassing....... :mrgreen:
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