Forty-Plus piston rings
Moderators: John@sos, charlesp, Charles uk, RickUK, Petergalileo
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Forty-Plus piston rings
I have two FP power heads - the first one I stripped and re-built recently, the second I haven't touched except to remove the Wipac flywheel/mag.
In giving the second one a 'once-over' visual inspection this morning, as well as an internal dose of oil, I noticed through the exhaust port that the piston rings are different from the first: specifically, the lower ring appears to be much narrower - about half-height. Is this a common configuration with these smaller motors?
You'll need to click on rings.jpg to see the picture - for some reason the system is saying "not downloaded yet" ... what does that mean ?
In giving the second one a 'once-over' visual inspection this morning, as well as an internal dose of oil, I noticed through the exhaust port that the piston rings are different from the first: specifically, the lower ring appears to be much narrower - about half-height. Is this a common configuration with these smaller motors?
You'll need to click on rings.jpg to see the picture - for some reason the system is saying "not downloaded yet" ... what does that mean ?
- Charles uk
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Re: Forty-Plus piston rings
Check again to make sure that what looks like the ring is cast iron, or is it me looking at it the wrong way around?
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
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Re: Forty-Plus piston rings
Apologises - when I said 'lower ring', I meant the bottom piston ring, not as shown on the graphic (which was upside down - duhhh ! - sorry about that). Have re-uploaded the graphic - now the right way up (but still won't display) - the cast-iron rings have surface rust and are showing as brown.Charles uk wrote:Check again to make sure that what looks like the ring is cast iron, or is it me looking at it the wrong way around?
- Niander101
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Re: Forty-Plus piston rings
What exactly is the problem do you have good compression ?
if yes i would say you dont have a problem
maybe it needs running to polish up the rings
if yes i would say you dont have a problem
maybe it needs running to polish up the rings
- Charles uk
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Re: Forty-Plus piston rings
I've never seen rings on a 40 as you've described, & I've probably worked on a dozen of mine & seen maybe 10 of other peoples, pull the cylinder & take us some pics.
To the best of my knowledge all classic Seagull rings from 1931 up to & not including the 170 were 1/8".
Anything is possible in Seagull World.
To the best of my knowledge all classic Seagull rings from 1931 up to & not including the 170 were 1/8".
Anything is possible in Seagull World.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
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Re: Forty-Plus piston rings
Read the first post - it's not a problem - just a curiosity.Niander101 wrote:What exactly is the problem do you have good compression ?
if yes i would say you dont have a problem
maybe it needs running to polish up the rings
I wasn't going to pull the piston, but as this may be of interest (well, to Charles at least) I will.
Stand by for more pics tomorrow (need the sunlight, as the flash will wash-out the image. Crap camera ...).
- Niander101
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Re: Forty-Plus piston rings
but as this may be of interest (well, to Charles at least) I will.
We are all interested sad gits
We are all interested sad gits

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Re: Forty-Plus piston rings
Problem solved: although one mystery has been replaced by another - albeit one of seemingly trivial importance.
On many pistons I've seen over the years, the piston diameter is uniform: from the skirt bottom right up to the crown. However, the attached graphic shows two Hepolite pistons of different design from the same model of Seagull FP engine. The left piston shows a 'recessed step' (dunno the correct name for it), in-between the 2 rings: something around -5 to -10 thou deep I'm guessing, which has become dark with burnt oil residue.
However, on the right piston (the subject of this post), this 'recessed step' extends below the lower ring as well, which was to produce the illusion of a 'half-height' rusty ring when viewed through the exhaust port. I discovered that the crankcase contained quite a lot of brown sludge (so it proved quite useful to pull the cylinder off), and what I had thought were rusty rings, was in fact this 'stepped recess' coloured by some of this brown sludge.
So - conundrum solved - the rings are in fact of equal height (my error), but it raises the question in my mind of what is the function of reducing the diameter of a piston next to the rings, and why this design variation between engines which were made only 1 year apart ? Unless of course, the left piston is a modern replacement, as it shows very little wear.
Googling for "Hepolite 2-stroke piston" variations/ design etc. has turned up nothing.
Niander - you crack me up ...
On many pistons I've seen over the years, the piston diameter is uniform: from the skirt bottom right up to the crown. However, the attached graphic shows two Hepolite pistons of different design from the same model of Seagull FP engine. The left piston shows a 'recessed step' (dunno the correct name for it), in-between the 2 rings: something around -5 to -10 thou deep I'm guessing, which has become dark with burnt oil residue.
However, on the right piston (the subject of this post), this 'recessed step' extends below the lower ring as well, which was to produce the illusion of a 'half-height' rusty ring when viewed through the exhaust port. I discovered that the crankcase contained quite a lot of brown sludge (so it proved quite useful to pull the cylinder off), and what I had thought were rusty rings, was in fact this 'stepped recess' coloured by some of this brown sludge.
So - conundrum solved - the rings are in fact of equal height (my error), but it raises the question in my mind of what is the function of reducing the diameter of a piston next to the rings, and why this design variation between engines which were made only 1 year apart ? Unless of course, the left piston is a modern replacement, as it shows very little wear.
Googling for "Hepolite 2-stroke piston" variations/ design etc. has turned up nothing.
Niander - you crack me up ...

- Niander101
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Re: Forty-Plus piston rings

I remember hepolite pistons from my yamaha RD 2stroke days
when going for a cheaper rebore!
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Re: Forty-Plus piston rings
So Niander might think there are one or two sad gits about (?) - well this sad ol' git just couldn't leave this one alone, and went for the full on-line research job this afternoon ....
Ok - if anyone else feels tempted to play - look up Piston-Ring Tribology.
Tribology being the science and engineering of interacting surfaces in relative motion, and involves the study of friction, lubrication and wear.
(NOT to be confused with Trichology - which is all about why hair falls out and why many men go bald in their middle-age ... yeah, tell me about it)
Is it important ? Oh yes. 40-55% of total mechanical engine losses due to friction occur in the power cylinder, and half of the power cylinder friction losses come from friction generated by the piston rings. (quoted from a MIT research paper)
So that's 25% of all engine friction losses being caused by piston rings alone, which explains why any improvements in this area could pay BIG dividends.
Ok - so I discovered that the areas of the piston next to the rings are known either as 'flanges' or 'lands' - and what is seen in the above graphic are examples of 'land height reduction'.
In general, land height reduction is no longer considered such a good idea, and is not seen at all these days.
One 'positive' is that it results in some oil retention in that area of the piston known as the 'dry region' - although it should be stressed that any retained oil quickly becomes significantly contaminated relative to that enjoyed by the lower bearings.
But the 'negatives' are many: there is less ring stability, and less thermal conduction, as well as an increased risk of blow-by, and a poorer level of sealing in general. It can also result in a weaker piston.
So there you go - if your engine runs ok, there's nothing much to be worried about, but from an engineering design point-of-view it doesn't really offer any signicant advantages.
Talk about 'live and learn' ...
I hereby claim the Sad Ol' Git Award 2012.
Ok - if anyone else feels tempted to play - look up Piston-Ring Tribology.
Tribology being the science and engineering of interacting surfaces in relative motion, and involves the study of friction, lubrication and wear.
(NOT to be confused with Trichology - which is all about why hair falls out and why many men go bald in their middle-age ... yeah, tell me about it)
Is it important ? Oh yes. 40-55% of total mechanical engine losses due to friction occur in the power cylinder, and half of the power cylinder friction losses come from friction generated by the piston rings. (quoted from a MIT research paper)
So that's 25% of all engine friction losses being caused by piston rings alone, which explains why any improvements in this area could pay BIG dividends.
Ok - so I discovered that the areas of the piston next to the rings are known either as 'flanges' or 'lands' - and what is seen in the above graphic are examples of 'land height reduction'.
In general, land height reduction is no longer considered such a good idea, and is not seen at all these days.
One 'positive' is that it results in some oil retention in that area of the piston known as the 'dry region' - although it should be stressed that any retained oil quickly becomes significantly contaminated relative to that enjoyed by the lower bearings.
But the 'negatives' are many: there is less ring stability, and less thermal conduction, as well as an increased risk of blow-by, and a poorer level of sealing in general. It can also result in a weaker piston.
So there you go - if your engine runs ok, there's nothing much to be worried about, but from an engineering design point-of-view it doesn't really offer any signicant advantages.
Talk about 'live and learn' ...
I hereby claim the Sad Ol' Git Award 2012.
- Niander101
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Re: Forty-Plus piston rings
Yes i agree you should have it mate 

- Petergalileo
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Re: Forty-Plus piston rings
Fixed the picture WOOHOO !!


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Re: Forty-Plus piston rings
Oh - well batted, that man ...
So what was it ? Nawh - on second thoughts, it's probably best for mere mortals not to ask about such things.
So what was it ? Nawh - on second thoughts, it's probably best for mere mortals not to ask about such things.
