Couple of shots of FV3364 now running especially for jeremy!1
Still need to sort out the Tiller. That will need a strip down unfortunately.
FV 3364
Moderators: John@sos, charlesp, Charles uk, RickUK, Petergalileo
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Adrian Dale
- Posts: 758
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:58 am
- Location: Tasmania, Australia
FV 3364
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Re: FV 3364
Adrian,
Looks really good. Everything there and correct (apart of course the tiller). A very nice acquisition.
One is very lucky to get a 65 year old engine in as good as condition as this one. Your LS24724 would appear to be the other end of this distant purchasing gamble!
Looks really good. Everything there and correct (apart of course the tiller). A very nice acquisition.
One is very lucky to get a 65 year old engine in as good as condition as this one. Your LS24724 would appear to be the other end of this distant purchasing gamble!
Re: FV 3364
Hi, Adrian, Very nice FV, I have just purchased a tidy little LS which started with four pulls without cleaning the plug or carb. I will have to send the relevant info to Jeremy when I get back from New Zealand after easter. My son Shaun and I are hopefully going to participate in the annual Waikato River event again. I have been following your Bruny Island endeavors , bloody long way for one day , I can hardly move after 55 miles on day one on the Waikato. Cheers, Garry.
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Adrian Dale
- Posts: 758
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:58 am
- Location: Tasmania, Australia
Re: FV 3364
Thanks Garry difference between Bruny and the Waikato is that 55 was just the first day on the Waikato there are many more.. Bruny is over in a day!
AJ
AJ
Re: FV 3364
Hi Garry,
Look forward to hearing about your new LS. it will go well with your FV and FVP. Just need an F and an LM to complete the set!
Any info on your son's (?) early 40 engines in New Zealand?
Cheers
Jeremy
Look forward to hearing about your new LS. it will go well with your FV and FVP. Just need an F and an LM to complete the set!
Any info on your son's (?) early 40 engines in New Zealand?
Cheers
Jeremy
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Adrian Dale
- Posts: 758
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:58 am
- Location: Tasmania, Australia
Re: FV 3364
Need some insight on FV3364.
I had assumed that the upper crankcase half had been broken at the tiller stub and that a tiller clamp had been fashioned to secure the tiller to the motor. I had expected to find clear evidence of the break from fractures and or cracking of the crankcase and at the very least signs of clean-up by filing marks and fettling.
Today I removed the clamp to check on the damage. To my surprise the stub had not been broken off the crankcase but rather machined in an identical manner to the optional tiller arrangement fitted to the FV around this time and identified by the suffix “T” in the serial number.
I cannot believe that BS would have supplied just a top half of the crankcase to replace the damaged part. BS note in several maintenance manuals that the crankcases are matched pairs and supplied as such.
So one question is how did this purposely machined crankcase get on to FV3364?. I have not seen FV’s with broken tiller stubs but understand that it was quite common and that most breakages, in the process of breaking, also damaged the crankcase thus the additional fin for strength.
Nether have I seen the machining for the stub on the optional tiller arrangement. I think Keith posted photo of one but it seems to have gone.
I have posted some photos of the parts used in the “repair” and also of the machined stub for reference.
I have also contacted the previous owner who received some notes of repairs carried out by the original owner. None of these mention a tiller repair. (Bare in mind that this motor had laid on a shelf in a garage for at least 40 years before being found as part of an estate clearance)
The short answer is that the stub was broken and the splint fitted but this is such a carefully throughout and manufactured fix that it is unlikely it was carried out in some ones shed in the 50’s The repair needed a lathe fitted with a four jaw chuck, the skill to use it and repairer needed tools and the skills for very careful and intricate sheet metal work.
This still does not answer the question of how the stub was machined so precisely after a fractured break.
Keen for your views gentlemen
AJ
I had assumed that the upper crankcase half had been broken at the tiller stub and that a tiller clamp had been fashioned to secure the tiller to the motor. I had expected to find clear evidence of the break from fractures and or cracking of the crankcase and at the very least signs of clean-up by filing marks and fettling.
Today I removed the clamp to check on the damage. To my surprise the stub had not been broken off the crankcase but rather machined in an identical manner to the optional tiller arrangement fitted to the FV around this time and identified by the suffix “T” in the serial number.
I cannot believe that BS would have supplied just a top half of the crankcase to replace the damaged part. BS note in several maintenance manuals that the crankcases are matched pairs and supplied as such.
So one question is how did this purposely machined crankcase get on to FV3364?. I have not seen FV’s with broken tiller stubs but understand that it was quite common and that most breakages, in the process of breaking, also damaged the crankcase thus the additional fin for strength.
Nether have I seen the machining for the stub on the optional tiller arrangement. I think Keith posted photo of one but it seems to have gone.
I have posted some photos of the parts used in the “repair” and also of the machined stub for reference.
I have also contacted the previous owner who received some notes of repairs carried out by the original owner. None of these mention a tiller repair. (Bare in mind that this motor had laid on a shelf in a garage for at least 40 years before being found as part of an estate clearance)
The short answer is that the stub was broken and the splint fitted but this is such a carefully throughout and manufactured fix that it is unlikely it was carried out in some ones shed in the 50’s The repair needed a lathe fitted with a four jaw chuck, the skill to use it and repairer needed tools and the skills for very careful and intricate sheet metal work.
This still does not answer the question of how the stub was machined so precisely after a fractured break.
Keen for your views gentlemen
AJ
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Re: FV 3364
Very interesting, Adrian.
I don't know if you are right in saying that breakages of the stub tiller were 'quite common'. I am not aware of this being a problem. But of course, a broken stub would probably have resulted in the engine being scrapped.
Yes, the bracket doesn't look like somebody knocked it up in their shed. It looks, as you say, well thought out and manufactured.
My only suggestion is that somebody wanted to convert a tilting tiller version to a stub tiller version. In theory the serial number should then have a T suffix, but perhaps this was omitted in error. My FV2821 has a tilting tiller but it does not have a T suffix.
I cannot quite work out what the short sleeve or stub is in your 3rd and 4th photo. Is this an aluminium stub? If it is an aluminium stub, then my suggestion above is probably not valid. But what would be the point of including the stub, so perhaps it is a sleeve between the tiller and the bracket?
BS seem to machine the stub off leaving a reasonable tidy large radius end on the end. very much like your photo.
Anyway, it is very good news, as you haven't got to carry out a complex repair.
Jeremy
I don't know if you are right in saying that breakages of the stub tiller were 'quite common'. I am not aware of this being a problem. But of course, a broken stub would probably have resulted in the engine being scrapped.
Yes, the bracket doesn't look like somebody knocked it up in their shed. It looks, as you say, well thought out and manufactured.
My only suggestion is that somebody wanted to convert a tilting tiller version to a stub tiller version. In theory the serial number should then have a T suffix, but perhaps this was omitted in error. My FV2821 has a tilting tiller but it does not have a T suffix.
I cannot quite work out what the short sleeve or stub is in your 3rd and 4th photo. Is this an aluminium stub? If it is an aluminium stub, then my suggestion above is probably not valid. But what would be the point of including the stub, so perhaps it is a sleeve between the tiller and the bracket?
BS seem to machine the stub off leaving a reasonable tidy large radius end on the end. very much like your photo.
Anyway, it is very good news, as you haven't got to carry out a complex repair.
Jeremy
Re: FV 3364
It looks like the stub has been broken off at one point in its life and may have damaged the top crank case in the process, then replaced the top crank case with a slightly later case, as they are not easy to find with the stub on, one reason for the original stub still inside the tiller tube and the owner wishing to keep the motor looking original as you have pretty much nowhere else to fit a tiller has made this holder up instead.
Re: FV 3364
I've seen a couple over the years that have been on ebay that have the fixed tiller broken. And is there not this seller fearful of this very breakage happening? http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/171734768721 ... 26_rdc%3D1
The long version fixed tiller would be highly susceptible to breakage in fact I wonder how many survived.
Just another theory: Could it not be that BS had these bracket made up as a common quick fix for a broken stub tiller mount? The plug looks like a BS infill to. The bracket looks a designed production rather than a one of. Fascinating.
As part of seagulls charm I enjoy seeing the ingenuity of different repairs, it is all part of their colourful history.
The long version fixed tiller would be highly susceptible to breakage in fact I wonder how many survived.
Just another theory: Could it not be that BS had these bracket made up as a common quick fix for a broken stub tiller mount? The plug looks like a BS infill to. The bracket looks a designed production rather than a one of. Fascinating.
As part of seagulls charm I enjoy seeing the ingenuity of different repairs, it is all part of their colourful history.
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Charles uk
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- Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:38 pm
- Location: Maidenhead Berks UK
Re: FV 3364
I gave that idea some thought to Hugo, & came to the conclusion that if Seagull were doing it they would have made it as simple/cheap as possible.
So instead of 2 layers of 1/8" ally plate that require pressing, shaping & drilling, 1 identical piece of 1/4" plate with 2" of 3/4" bar welded to it to hold the fixed tiller, slightly stronger, half the pressing, shaping & drilling opps but with the additional cost of 2" x 3/4" bar & 2 minutes welding.
It also could have extended only 3/4 of the way around the crankcase, with only 3 holes saving on the material/labour costs & using 1 less extra length crankcase studs.
I'd guess homemade, but a real good fix, that top crankcase half looks exactly like all the others I've seen without the central tiller support.
So instead of 2 layers of 1/8" ally plate that require pressing, shaping & drilling, 1 identical piece of 1/4" plate with 2" of 3/4" bar welded to it to hold the fixed tiller, slightly stronger, half the pressing, shaping & drilling opps but with the additional cost of 2" x 3/4" bar & 2 minutes welding.
It also could have extended only 3/4 of the way around the crankcase, with only 3 holes saving on the material/labour costs & using 1 less extra length crankcase studs.
I'd guess homemade, but a real good fix, that top crankcase half looks exactly like all the others I've seen without the central tiller support.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
Re: FV 3364
Yes, it is really interesting trying to work out what has been going on with this FV.
Keith, what do you mean when you wrote 'replaced the top crankcase with a slightly later case'?
Another solution to a broken stub, and a simpler repair, would be to fit the tilting tiller.
Hugz, why do you think the seller of this FVP is 'fearful of this very breakage'?
As you say, it could well be that BS made up this bracket for repairs to broken stubs. However, it does seem quite an expensive repair compared to fitting the tilting tiller.
i think stub tillers were all 5" long. Was there a longer version?
All interesting stuff.
Jeremy
Keith, what do you mean when you wrote 'replaced the top crankcase with a slightly later case'?
Another solution to a broken stub, and a simpler repair, would be to fit the tilting tiller.
Hugz, why do you think the seller of this FVP is 'fearful of this very breakage'?
As you say, it could well be that BS made up this bracket for repairs to broken stubs. However, it does seem quite an expensive repair compared to fitting the tilting tiller.
i think stub tillers were all 5" long. Was there a longer version?
All interesting stuff.
Jeremy
Re: FV 3364
Am I correct in saying that the later versions or variation with an tilt added tiller had the stub machined off by BS, as shown on this motor.Keith, what do you mean when you wrote 'replaced the top crankcase with a slightly later case'?
Which begs the question, was the tilt tiller available from day one or was it an option added to stop this after the problem arose, which would mean tilt models were not available on the early model but added as an option later on in the run of this model, that's why I called it a later machined off crank.
I think this modification, as good as it is, is over engineered for an house seagull part.
Re: FV 3364
The FVP I had with a bracket and tilting tiller looked very much like the parts were original. The stub on the crankcase looked like it was cast minus the stump with a nice radius very similar to the machined one shown on this FV we are discussing. Jeremy now has this FVP so I'm sure he can post pictures. It is fairly important as it will show the BS original arrangement.
Looking at this FV with the one-off bracket, it looks to me like the top crank case has had the studs removed and been mounted on a face plate on the face the block mounts on to, and the stub machined off. I think those brackets are a good job, but any decent sheetmetal worker would have been able to make those at a bench using hand tools, and perhaps a press.
Looking at this FV with the one-off bracket, it looks to me like the top crank case has had the studs removed and been mounted on a face plate on the face the block mounts on to, and the stub machined off. I think those brackets are a good job, but any decent sheetmetal worker would have been able to make those at a bench using hand tools, and perhaps a press.
Re: FV 3364
Jeremy re long stub tillers, if you have a look at your excellent research charts viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5141 there are 5 F.. motors with long stubs with one measuring 10inch.
Interestingly when I received my FVP and rolled it out of its blanket I thankfully exhaled when I saw the stub tiller was still intact and that was before this discussion took place. We often see enquiries here concerning broken crankcases when a motor has taken a tumble and the tilt tillers have caused a breakage. I'm sure the majority of dinged brass tanks are from falls (anyone here not have a motor slide down from a wall?) I was lucky my EDL only broke the tiller and not the crankcase though an LLs bent its shaft and another motor (riptide I think) took out a piece of furniture on its way down which softened the blow. I was pretty pissed off, I'm lucky I have no permanent missus.
I still believe that is a lot of work to make this bracket for one motor. Sure it is possible but having to make a pattern for the press etc.... I wonder if there wasn't a company that made it as an aftermarket repair kit? The heavy transom bracket that allowed a gull to spin 360 degrees to give reverse was an example of an external aftermarket accessory. Was it called the rotor-gull?? I can't remember.
The Australian Seagull, the Olympic, also used the crankcase bolts to mount a carry handle so maybe this bracket is an Australian initiative.
Just plugged an AVG lead to my wide screen TV so I can inspect the bracket pictures in larger detail..... Way to nerdy! and at 3.40am here.
Interestingly when I received my FVP and rolled it out of its blanket I thankfully exhaled when I saw the stub tiller was still intact and that was before this discussion took place. We often see enquiries here concerning broken crankcases when a motor has taken a tumble and the tilt tillers have caused a breakage. I'm sure the majority of dinged brass tanks are from falls (anyone here not have a motor slide down from a wall?) I was lucky my EDL only broke the tiller and not the crankcase though an LLs bent its shaft and another motor (riptide I think) took out a piece of furniture on its way down which softened the blow. I was pretty pissed off, I'm lucky I have no permanent missus.
I still believe that is a lot of work to make this bracket for one motor. Sure it is possible but having to make a pattern for the press etc.... I wonder if there wasn't a company that made it as an aftermarket repair kit? The heavy transom bracket that allowed a gull to spin 360 degrees to give reverse was an example of an external aftermarket accessory. Was it called the rotor-gull?? I can't remember.
The Australian Seagull, the Olympic, also used the crankcase bolts to mount a carry handle so maybe this bracket is an Australian initiative.
Just plugged an AVG lead to my wide screen TV so I can inspect the bracket pictures in larger detail..... Way to nerdy! and at 3.40am here.
Re: FV 3364
Keith, I now understand what you mean. I don't know when the tilting tiller was introduced. It could have been at the start, but I suspect slightly later. My FV1867T is the first one so far on my data list, so all we know for certain is that it would have been at that time or probably before then.
All the machined off stubs that I have seen, all look as if they have been machined in a very similar manner.
This photo of FV1867T shows the machined off stub. (I haven't been able to load it. I will try on a new post)
Adrian, Yes, your FVP10422 has the same looking machined off stub as FV1867T. (This awaits rebuild as FVP8925 got priority as I prefer the stub tiller, which it has. Although with all this discussion of fragility in that area, it sounds like another wrong decision!)
Hugz. Sounds like I ought to read my own document! I started recording tiller length when it didn't seem generally to be known what was original. This was also true of the 10" tilting tillers, which appear to be available in 12" length for the (later?) SJM/SJP. I am reasonably certain that 5" (or perhaps 5 1/4") is the correct length for a standard stub tiller and 10" for a tilting tiller. But you are of course correct in saying that some engines have longer tillers. I believe these have all been modified by previous or present owners. As my data sheet has developed, I am initially reluctant to state what is 'correct'. It is only when the data builds up that confidence grows concerning a particular feature. However, it is ultimately a matter of people looking at the data and deciding what looks to be correct.
I have noted your experience of engines falling over. As you say a dented tanks could be the least of ones troubles if an engines takes a tumble.
The carrying handle on that Olympic looks handy(!). The stub tiller on the FV/FVP makes an excellent carrying handle, although the very early ones (which do not have the extra cast web could, I think, develop leakage between the crankcases.
Jeremy
All the machined off stubs that I have seen, all look as if they have been machined in a very similar manner.
This photo of FV1867T shows the machined off stub. (I haven't been able to load it. I will try on a new post)
Adrian, Yes, your FVP10422 has the same looking machined off stub as FV1867T. (This awaits rebuild as FVP8925 got priority as I prefer the stub tiller, which it has. Although with all this discussion of fragility in that area, it sounds like another wrong decision!)
Hugz. Sounds like I ought to read my own document! I started recording tiller length when it didn't seem generally to be known what was original. This was also true of the 10" tilting tillers, which appear to be available in 12" length for the (later?) SJM/SJP. I am reasonably certain that 5" (or perhaps 5 1/4") is the correct length for a standard stub tiller and 10" for a tilting tiller. But you are of course correct in saying that some engines have longer tillers. I believe these have all been modified by previous or present owners. As my data sheet has developed, I am initially reluctant to state what is 'correct'. It is only when the data builds up that confidence grows concerning a particular feature. However, it is ultimately a matter of people looking at the data and deciding what looks to be correct.
I have noted your experience of engines falling over. As you say a dented tanks could be the least of ones troubles if an engines takes a tumble.
The carrying handle on that Olympic looks handy(!). The stub tiller on the FV/FVP makes an excellent carrying handle, although the very early ones (which do not have the extra cast web could, I think, develop leakage between the crankcases.
Jeremy