Saving Old Seagulls

hi keith
here are some pics of the number in close up this ones interesting a 2 digit number followed by the letters fr
could this be, as charles uk said a signature of another worker or could it mean its a refurbished f also notice the gasket its wire gauze and a black tarry substance
dave

Thanks for that, it would be interesting to know what the difference is, if any, between an VF and FV, unless its still a 40cc motor like the F, that would make a little more sense.

See what you mean Keith a little 40 (F) with a Villiers carb (VF), it's possible.

its hard to measure with the head on but its a stroke of 33mm
and the bore measured through the intake with 2 bits of wire with bent ends is 44mm
not accurate but it gives us an idea until the head comes of.

Now you have the tiller bracket off have you a photo of the crankcase stub? is it actually broken of is it machined as this?

My FV had a "special" stub bracket that looked to be a repair but then after removal the stub on the crankcase was found to be a factory machined one as fitted to the first tilt tiller engines. Photos are in a previous string.

It was pretty much decided by the collective forum that the crankcase half had been changed and that the repair was post delivery even though the original owner, like your vicar, had no recollection of it.

AJ Tassi. Ps My other FV also had a lawnmower carb. cowl. That has now been removed and the correct one fitted.

Where's Jeremy when you need him?

(i think he's still on his boat this week with grandkids)

I'm following this with great interest now

jon

hi AJ
its definitely broke the made up attachment is quiet crude looking
cant see your pics any more, would like to though could you repost them for comparison,
the carb cowl is very different to the normal one, i would like to think it might have been an option
after all seagull sell plastic ones that do the same job now,
so far two have turned up out of how many fs,
then again maybe they undid through vibration and lawn mower ones were cheaper.

heres a couple of pics of the water intake holes, will have to drill this out it wont budge.

dave

Re posted pics of stub tiller support.

AJ

Couple more

AJ

It is a shame you aren't in NZ, I could have cast you a new one... using the old one as a pattern.
Hope you can get it fixed.

Thanks AJ, totally different to my one and a lot lighter.
heres a pic of a washer that is fitted under the rope pull never seen one before odd why some one would add this,
has one been seen before?

dave

It's really great to have this early series 40 engine found and rescued. Although it appears to be in very good order (ignoring the broken tiller stub), so rescue isn't quite the right word.
These early FVs are eminently useable on small dinghies. I have just come back from a few days spent in south Devon with FV2682. Reliable and smooth little engine. I think the lower power - compared to the 64cc engines - makes them easier and nicer to use. I am sure VF1065 will soon be doing what it was intended for.

Congratulations to Dave for getting it. I am saying this through gritted teeth!!!

My thoughts on the VF prefix as opposed to the VF, is quite simple.
I think at around about the introduction of the 'big block' 55cc engine. ( Charles P has notified me that the BS documents state this occurred at serial number 1080) there was possibly a choice (or perhaps created by a supply or cost issues from Villiers and Amal) of the small Amal or the Villiers.
The engines with Amal carbs would have just had the F prefix. My big block F1207 is an example. If however the Villiers carb was fitted, then the V prefix was added. This possibly might have been fitted retrospectively and so the V added as the first digit. I suspect that it was not really an issue at BS. I am sure that they had other more important problems to contend with, rather than worrying whether it should be VF or FV.

With regard to the transition point of the 'small block' 40cc to the 'big block' 55cc engine, it would be surprising if the there was a precise defined change point. 1080 might have been the planned/expected change point, but in actual production a more pragmatic attitude would probably have prevailed. So 1065 with a big block is not a huge surprise.
I believe that the small block 40cc had a bore of c38mm and a stroke of c35mm. The big block 55cc engines are about 45x35.

The BS documents recording the year end serial numbers do record an VF1325, so taking this at face value, it would appear that there were others with this prefix. How many were so stamped is impossible to know.

Dave,
I hope the strip down is progressing well. I know that you said that you would take it slowly. i am sure that is wise. Any thought as to what to do with the broken tiller stub?
You have got a lovely early and original 40 - well done!

Jeremy

Several options for repairing that tiller stub if it was me.
1. Machine the existing stub flat and drill and weld a new one in place, carefully dress the weld and you may never know.
2. Machine the remains flat, machine a small counterbore to locate the new stub and drill and tap a short hole, screw a replacement in. Once fitted with a tiller it will be invisible. I know a guy who would be able to do that.

There should be enough metal there to do either.

The first option would be the way to go and was what I had been considering with mine until I found that the stub, or lack of it, was an original factory machining. Now I am replacing it with a tilting tiller.

But back to yours; may I suggest that when drilling out you use a much smaller steel pre-machined stub ( flanged out from the thread to the correct size stub) with a shoulder to screw tightly against the casing thus maintain as much strength as possible in the crankcase casting. With accurate machining a good face to face joint will be formed and the full depth of the crankcase casting can be taken advantage of.

Again there will be no visible repair as the tiller sits snugly against the casing.. don't forget the large bronze split pin through the tiller and stub for complete authenticity

AJ