40 Plus - poor starting,what to do next?
Moderators: John@sos, charlesp, Charles uk, RickUK, Petergalileo
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Clifford Pope
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:37 pm
- Location: West Wales
Just to add to the confusion
I have had a look at my 40 plus this morning.
As near as can determine the ignition timing is 36º BTDC or 5mm measured on the piston travel (sorry about going metric but I was using a metric depth guage) It is definitely not 50º or 23º for that matter
Very surprised by that!
The position of the baseplate clamping screw is not exaxtly pointng forwards but nearer half past 6, if forward is the 6 o'clock position. In fact as accurately as I can measure it its between 12º and 13º from the 6 o'clock position. (So thats 20 past 6)
The points gap may be just a touch tighter than 20 thou, 19 perhaps but I did not feel inclined to alter it. If it were widened then then the timing would be advanced marginally.
I do not under stand what Charlesp is getting at when he asks if you were measuring the gap with the points fully open. ..... "Are you measuring your gap with the points fully open? British Seagull engineers would frequently close the gap down to as little as 12 or 13 thou to compensate for timing errors on earlier motors."... Fully open is the only position at which you can measure it surely. Closing down to a smaller setting is another matter.
My engine was little used and only 2 years old when I bought it and has had very little use since. It certainly has not been messed about with. I think today was only the second time I have looked inside the flywheel in over 30 years of ownership.
It is a 1973 model with the sealed (Wipac?) coil assembly but since that is supposed to be directly interchangeable with thw earlier Villiers one the settings should be the same
If 23º (or 23½) is the correct timing for Century models and it varies from model to model then that figure is irrelevant for a 40+.
I think I would position the base plate to the position I have measued ie 12 to 13 degrees beyond the 6 o'clock position and see what that makes the timing and give it a try at that. I cannot see the point of trying 23º BTDC if that is the timing for century models
I have had a look at my 40 plus this morning.
As near as can determine the ignition timing is 36º BTDC or 5mm measured on the piston travel (sorry about going metric but I was using a metric depth guage) It is definitely not 50º or 23º for that matter
Very surprised by that!
The position of the baseplate clamping screw is not exaxtly pointng forwards but nearer half past 6, if forward is the 6 o'clock position. In fact as accurately as I can measure it its between 12º and 13º from the 6 o'clock position. (So thats 20 past 6)
The points gap may be just a touch tighter than 20 thou, 19 perhaps but I did not feel inclined to alter it. If it were widened then then the timing would be advanced marginally.
I do not under stand what Charlesp is getting at when he asks if you were measuring the gap with the points fully open. ..... "Are you measuring your gap with the points fully open? British Seagull engineers would frequently close the gap down to as little as 12 or 13 thou to compensate for timing errors on earlier motors."... Fully open is the only position at which you can measure it surely. Closing down to a smaller setting is another matter.
My engine was little used and only 2 years old when I bought it and has had very little use since. It certainly has not been messed about with. I think today was only the second time I have looked inside the flywheel in over 30 years of ownership.
It is a 1973 model with the sealed (Wipac?) coil assembly but since that is supposed to be directly interchangeable with thw earlier Villiers one the settings should be the same
If 23º (or 23½) is the correct timing for Century models and it varies from model to model then that figure is irrelevant for a 40+.
I think I would position the base plate to the position I have measued ie 12 to 13 degrees beyond the 6 o'clock position and see what that makes the timing and give it a try at that. I cannot see the point of trying 23º BTDC if that is the timing for century models
Sorry Vic, badly expressed.
I meant to ensure that the gap was set when the points were fully open; I then meant to make the comment that sometimes a smaller gap was used at the factory for earlier models. Two separate things clumsily confused!
I've just been chatting with the other Charles over a coffee. We're both fairly sure that timing is at the bottom of this problem.
I meant to ensure that the gap was set when the points were fully open; I then meant to make the comment that sometimes a smaller gap was used at the factory for earlier models. Two separate things clumsily confused!
I've just been chatting with the other Charles over a coffee. We're both fairly sure that timing is at the bottom of this problem.
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Clifford Pope
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:37 pm
- Location: West Wales
If it had the wrong crankshaft the timing would be further out than it actually appears to be. The baseplates are common, it's just the crankshaft/crankcase combination that differs.
The baseplate securing screw on forties is approximately facing forward, on Centuries it faces to Port, the consequent rotation of the baseplate negating the crankshaft keyway offset.
So - if you had the wrong crankshaft, you 40 wouldn't run at all; it may simply occasionally backfire when you attemp tostart it.
So I think you can be certain that you have the right components.
The baseplate securing screw on forties is approximately facing forward, on Centuries it faces to Port, the consequent rotation of the baseplate negating the crankshaft keyway offset.
So - if you had the wrong crankshaft, you 40 wouldn't run at all; it may simply occasionally backfire when you attemp tostart it.
So I think you can be certain that you have the right components.
Well my 40+ is definitely more than that. As I said earlier its 36° as near as I can determine it but I will rub out all the marks and try again. I'll also double check the 5mm figure. The problem is it is not easy to spot the exact position at which the points begin to open. You cant do it with a bulb on a couple of lenghts of wire like we used to do it on the old fashioned cars.The timing is 23 1/2 degrees for Forties, Centuries, and 102s
I suppose I could make up a scale and get the old timing strobe light out but at the moment there is no fuel in the engine as it has not been used for several years and the stand I'll need to clamp it on has a couple of bigger engines on for the winter. A fun thing for tomorrow perhaps.
My figure for the position of the base plate clamp screw should be pretty reliable though. If I was Clifford I'd reposition the baseplate to that and give it a try, unless anyone can suggest any reason why a '73 model with Wipac ignition is any different to '64 model with a Villiers system.
If he gets it running by hand starting it will be a big leap forward even if he has to adjust things more precisely later.
'64 Villiers and '73 Wipac should be the same. British Seagull marketed Wipac systems complete as direct replacements for Villiers versions when they started to run out of parts.
Naturally there are manufacturing tolerances - notoriously sloppy with British Seagull in some areas. It's not unknown for the timing to be out - but not disastrously so. The notch in the crankcase nose will be the right place, despite thoughts otherwise.
Each new motor was tank tested, and those that failed to achieve the right performance were sent back - so if the notch was wrong the crankcase would have been reassembled with a replacement top half, correctly 'dimpled'
There is no room for leeway on the cam lobes on the flywheel, there were no variations.
What I'm getting at is that with the baseplate correctly fitted - with the securing screw located in the dimple - the timing will be correct. If a Century crankshaft had been fitted then no way would this motor run even with a drill to start it.
My advice at this stage is to go through the 'routine' once more. Clean carb, clean points, check both gaps. Try again.
My thoughts about timing are prompted by an earlier post which implied that the timing was somehow being adjusted, and there should be no need to do that.
Good luck.
Naturally there are manufacturing tolerances - notoriously sloppy with British Seagull in some areas. It's not unknown for the timing to be out - but not disastrously so. The notch in the crankcase nose will be the right place, despite thoughts otherwise.
Each new motor was tank tested, and those that failed to achieve the right performance were sent back - so if the notch was wrong the crankcase would have been reassembled with a replacement top half, correctly 'dimpled'
There is no room for leeway on the cam lobes on the flywheel, there were no variations.
What I'm getting at is that with the baseplate correctly fitted - with the securing screw located in the dimple - the timing will be correct. If a Century crankshaft had been fitted then no way would this motor run even with a drill to start it.
My advice at this stage is to go through the 'routine' once more. Clean carb, clean points, check both gaps. Try again.
My thoughts about timing are prompted by an earlier post which implied that the timing was somehow being adjusted, and there should be no need to do that.
Good luck.
Hello all,
To find when the points are opening, I put a thin piece of paper between it. Then turning the flywheel back and then the normall way out until the paper starts to come free from between the points. I always take cigarette paper.( from my neighbour because he smokes and I do not.)
Happy Seagulling
Albert
To find when the points are opening, I put a thin piece of paper between it. Then turning the flywheel back and then the normall way out until the paper starts to come free from between the points. I always take cigarette paper.( from my neighbour because he smokes and I do not.)
Happy Seagulling
Albert
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Clifford Pope
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:37 pm
- Location: West Wales
Success ! of a sort.
I have:
rechecked the contact breaker gap, and it is precisely 20 thou.
tried setting the timing to TDC
set the plug gap to 20 thou as advised.
Result; not a cough with the cord, but it fired a few times after repeated application of the drill
Moved timing to 23 degrees BTDC
no difference
Moved timing to 10 degrees
some progress. It would run roughly for about 10 seconds
Closed plug gap to the original 15 thou as per tank instructions
Result - it burst into life and ran sweetly at all speeds. It will idle, and then pick up again without stalling. It restarts easily on the cord.
So that is with about 10 degrees BTDC. The locating screw is pointing at about 7.30, as viewed looking aft along the tiller towards the tank. It is nowhere near the hole in the collar, and does not even overlap it.
(As I said, with the screw located in the hole the timing is 50 degrees BTDC)
The HT plug is at about 10 o'clock.
So that problem appears to have been solved, assuming that I can get it to restart when cold without use of the electric drill. The reason for the line-up discrepancy is a mystery it seems.
NEW PROBLEM
There is not a trace of cooling water coming out of anywhere. I am not quite sure where to look. There are several small holes in the smaller front chrome tube, roughly corresponding to the exhaust holes in the rear tube.
There is a vertical hole about the size of a pencil at the rear of the cylinder block, which possibly has a trace of steam (?) coming from it.
I have tried flushing and back flushing all these holes, and poking a bit of wire up, but it makes no difference..
So what do I need to dismantle to access the water pump? Or is it only supposed to work when the motor is actually moving through water?
(I removed the prop for the bucket test, the first time it sprayed water everywhere and it was impossible to check anything properly)
I have:
rechecked the contact breaker gap, and it is precisely 20 thou.
tried setting the timing to TDC
set the plug gap to 20 thou as advised.
Result; not a cough with the cord, but it fired a few times after repeated application of the drill
Moved timing to 23 degrees BTDC
no difference
Moved timing to 10 degrees
some progress. It would run roughly for about 10 seconds
Closed plug gap to the original 15 thou as per tank instructions
Result - it burst into life and ran sweetly at all speeds. It will idle, and then pick up again without stalling. It restarts easily on the cord.
So that is with about 10 degrees BTDC. The locating screw is pointing at about 7.30, as viewed looking aft along the tiller towards the tank. It is nowhere near the hole in the collar, and does not even overlap it.
(As I said, with the screw located in the hole the timing is 50 degrees BTDC)
The HT plug is at about 10 o'clock.
So that problem appears to have been solved, assuming that I can get it to restart when cold without use of the electric drill. The reason for the line-up discrepancy is a mystery it seems.
NEW PROBLEM
There is not a trace of cooling water coming out of anywhere. I am not quite sure where to look. There are several small holes in the smaller front chrome tube, roughly corresponding to the exhaust holes in the rear tube.
There is a vertical hole about the size of a pencil at the rear of the cylinder block, which possibly has a trace of steam (?) coming from it.
I have tried flushing and back flushing all these holes, and poking a bit of wire up, but it makes no difference..
So what do I need to dismantle to access the water pump? Or is it only supposed to work when the motor is actually moving through water?
(I removed the prop for the bucket test, the first time it sprayed water everywhere and it was impossible to check anything properly)
I'm surprised that just shutting the plug gap down to 15 thou has made all the difference. I believe you said it was a new plug so it suggests that the ignition system is not up to scratch and is only giving a weak spark under compression. The condenser (In the back of the box that houses the points) could well be failing. Don't fork out £38 for one though get a car type one, any one that will physically fit. I think it was a Ford Escort one that I fitted in the Villiers mag on my Dad's old Lawn mower)
The cooling water outlet is the hole you have seen in the underside of the cylinder block (5/16"diameter)
Try back flushing with a hose held up tight to this outlet but keep the engine with the power head highest to avoid any chance of getting water into the cylinder. If the system is free of blockages the water will comeout via the water intake slots.
If the colling system is blocked then others will be able to advise you.
If you feel you need to inspect the water pump then here is all the info you might require
Sevice Sheet deleted to avoid possible copyright issues.
Note they do not have flexible impellers that are a neat fit. Thats why a Seagull can safely be run dry.
The cooling water outlet is the hole you have seen in the underside of the cylinder block (5/16"diameter)
Try back flushing with a hose held up tight to this outlet but keep the engine with the power head highest to avoid any chance of getting water into the cylinder. If the system is free of blockages the water will comeout via the water intake slots.
If the colling system is blocked then others will be able to advise you.
If you feel you need to inspect the water pump then here is all the info you might require
Sevice Sheet deleted to avoid possible copyright issues.
Note they do not have flexible impellers that are a neat fit. Thats why a Seagull can safely be run dry.
Last edited by Vic on Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm surprised that just shutting the plug gap down to 15 thou has made all the difference. I believe you said it was a new plug so it suggests that the ignition system is not up to scratch and is only giving a weak spark under compression. The condenser (In the back of the box that houses the points) could well be failing. Don't fork out £38 for one though get a car type one, any one that will physically fit. I think it was a Ford Escort one that I fitted in the Villiers mag on my Dad's old Lawn mower)
The cooling water outlet is the hole you have seen in the underside of the cylinder block (5/16"diameter)
Try back flushing with a hose held up tight to this outlet but keep the engine with the power head highest to avoid any chance of getting water into the cylinder. If the system is free of blockages the water will comeout via the water intake slots.
If the colling system is blocked then others will be able to advise you.
If you feel you need to inspect the water pump then here is all the info you might require
Service sheet deleted to avoid possible copy right issues
Note they do not have flexible impellers that are a neat fit. Thats why a Seagull can safely be run dry.
The cooling water outlet is the hole you have seen in the underside of the cylinder block (5/16"diameter)
Try back flushing with a hose held up tight to this outlet but keep the engine with the power head highest to avoid any chance of getting water into the cylinder. If the system is free of blockages the water will comeout via the water intake slots.
If the colling system is blocked then others will be able to advise you.
If you feel you need to inspect the water pump then here is all the info you might require
Service sheet deleted to avoid possible copy right issues
Note they do not have flexible impellers that are a neat fit. Thats why a Seagull can safely be run dry.
Last edited by Vic on Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Clifford Pope
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:37 pm
- Location: West Wales
Many thanks for the diagram and advice Vic. I had tried to follow another thread on the forum but it made no sense because I didn't know what I was looking at.
No, I didn't say the plug was new - I meant it looked new inside, with the electrodes un-eroded, and appeared to have little or no use.
I'll follow up the condenser check. But I had already tested it with a multimeter on the resistance scale - a good flick of the needle, quickly subsiding to a nil reading.
Many thanks everyone for all your help. I'm sorry my engine seems to be such an oddity - if anyone ever has any ideas as to why the locking hole is in the wrong place I'd love to hear.
Incidentally the serial number is SJP 1045 H4, which I identified as a 40+, made in August 1964. ?
No, I didn't say the plug was new - I meant it looked new inside, with the electrodes un-eroded, and appeared to have little or no use.
I'll follow up the condenser check. But I had already tested it with a multimeter on the resistance scale - a good flick of the needle, quickly subsiding to a nil reading.
Many thanks everyone for all your help. I'm sorry my engine seems to be such an oddity - if anyone ever has any ideas as to why the locking hole is in the wrong place I'd love to hear.
Incidentally the serial number is SJP 1045 H4, which I identified as a 40+, made in August 1964. ?
Maybe worth getting a new plug then.
A multi meter is not applying the sort of voltage that the condenser will be subjected to in use so that is not valid test. Maybe a 500v "megger" insulation tester would be better but even that will not be testing the capacity of the thing. The only thing you or I can do is to to test by substitution. I have only ever come across two failed condensers. One was in a friends MG 1100 about 30 years ago (which I failed to diagnose) the other was in the Villiers engine on the lawnmower. That was about 20 years ago but I diagnosed that straight away. In both cases the engines became progressively more difficult to start although they would run once started.
Unfortunately modern cars do not have condensers like the old ones did so finding a suitable replacement is not so easy as it once was.
A multi meter is not applying the sort of voltage that the condenser will be subjected to in use so that is not valid test. Maybe a 500v "megger" insulation tester would be better but even that will not be testing the capacity of the thing. The only thing you or I can do is to to test by substitution. I have only ever come across two failed condensers. One was in a friends MG 1100 about 30 years ago (which I failed to diagnose) the other was in the Villiers engine on the lawnmower. That was about 20 years ago but I diagnosed that straight away. In both cases the engines became progressively more difficult to start although they would run once started.
Unfortunately modern cars do not have condensers like the old ones did so finding a suitable replacement is not so easy as it once was.