Little Forty

[Gannet]

Adrian,
I am not too sure exactly when the 'In' appeared, but certainly later than 8222. My data list would suggest about 15000 and probably certainly by 18000. There is obviously more data to collect to before we can be more accurate.
Can those who are collecting data on 102s (hint hint Jon!) make a comment.
Just to be sure about the filler cap - i assume the breather knob has the earlier 0.10 slot width and not the later 0.12?

Jeremy

[Oyster 49]

Just measured 0.098"

Well you have me caught with my pants down with the flywheel cover. Gutted and embarrassed! I suspect you are even stricter than Charles L on these matters..

[headdownarseup]

One thing at a time gents!

With regards to cylinder head specs, i think i'm correct in that the head currently fitted on this LS would appear to be that from a slightly later SJM/SJP type motor .I think they're pretty much the same in the combustion chamber EXCEPT one uses those cheesehead screws (slotted) whereas the correct LS type head uses nuts for the "through the waterjacket" studs.
Looking at the pics closely i think what's happened is somebody has attached a later cylinder head to an older block but still used nuts to hold everything together.

Does this make sense to everyone so far.

Bear with me on the "plain/in/for" mag covers.

Back shortly

Jon

[headdownarseup]

Back again!

Right, the earliest data i have with a 102 having an "in the world" mag cover appears at a mid 44,000 number. Tying this in with the "little model 40's" would give us an approximate date of late 54/early 55. There are plenty of others on my list that are grossly wrong in a lot of aspects, but this seems to be the best example i have right now of anything remotely un-molested.

So, roughly speaking as a date late 54 to early 55, does this sound about right to you Jeremy?


Jon

[Gannet]

Hi Jon,

'In' flywheel covers. I always prefer to refer to serial numbers rather than dates, but dates seem the only way to compare the F,FV,FVP, LM & LS range with the 102s.
Serial No. 15000 is about July 1953
Serial No.18000 is about mid January 1954

There is not a lot of data, but i would suggest that the introduction was probably between July 1953 and Jan 1954. So slightly earlier than your suggestion, Jon. But lets keep collecting the data so that we will know with more assurance.

SJM/SJP head screws :- Jon you kindly did my SJM35 - weren't they countersunk screws?

LS/LM cylinder heads compared to SJM/SJP cylinder heads. Was the 'DO NOT REMOVE' cast instruction introduced for the first SJM/SJP? I think if it was (as is probable), which makes the head identification quite easy.

Adrian,
Thanks for all the information. I have recorded your FV8222 filler cap as SENS - Short Ears Narrow Slot. This is the earlier one and I suggest is the correct version for 8222. All you have got to do now is to fit a float bowl without the drain hole!!

Jeremy

[Collector Inspector]

Jon Said:

"With regards to cylinder head specs, i think i'm correct in that the head currently fitted on this LS would appear to be that from a slightly later SJM/SJP type motor "

I feel better now after mentioning that earlier aye.

BnC

[Gannet]

There was an overlap during the introduction of the SJM/SJP whilst the LM/LS were being phased out. The figures taken from information obtained by John Williams and on this web site are as follows:-


Qty
Year Serial Nos LS/LM Qty Serial Nos JM/SJP Qty Total Qty
1955 27085-35003 7919 10 - 586 577 8496
1956 35004- 38324 3321 587-3903 3317 6638
1957 38324-38344 21 3904-9772 5869 5890

It would not be surprising if there were common parts used across these two ranges of engines

Jeremy

[Collector Inspector]

Agreed but not that head with studs.

BnC

[Gannet]

I seem to have confused the situation by saying about LS25408 :-The head studs and nuts look quite usual for an FV. I meant of course quite usual for an LS. I wonder if Steve can tell us if the head has 'DO NOT REMOVE' cast in on the starboard side. I think it is possible that SJM/SJP heads had that instruction, whereas LS/LM heads did not. I believe that FV/FVP & LS/LM & early SJM/SJP all had that raised spigot around the stud or screw. (Although very early FVs might be slightly different as per my FV1207).

Jeremy

[headdownarseup]

Jeremy

Agreed in that dates (at the moment) are approximate. Loads more data is still needed before we can firm up certain things.
I'm still working on stuff this end but as you know it takes time. Lots of time and patience.



Getting back to this LS again.
On the face of it, this looks as though it has been well looked after. It seems perfectly reasonable to assume this engine has been apart at some point in its life. Perhaps we can surmise the head was changed because of damage caused by the initial dismantling. I guess we'll never know. These are after all some 60 plus years old now and as a result quite literally anything could have (and possibly has been) swapped and changed about simply to keep the thing in running condition. You've heard me refer to this as a "running repair" or "make do and mend". This is what's happened to this motor.

Let's not forget that spare parts ran out fairly quickly at the end of the production run for the "little model 40's".
Those of you that have access to service sheet no.29 will know this.
For those of you that perhaps don't, here you are:

QUOTE
"There appears to be some misunderstanding regarding availability of spare parts for the early LITTLE MODEL FORTY, FORTY MINUS and FORTY PLUS.
The position now is that unfortunately many of the parts are no longer available for the FV,FVP,LM and LS series which were discontinued in 1958".
UNQUOTE
Do we have any idea when service sheet no.29 was first printed?

So what i refer to as a "RUNNING REPAIR" with this particular LS is reasonable to assume that the head was removed at some point after 1958 and was found that no more parts were available. What to do now? Use the next available part in the current production i'e SJM/SJP.
Does this make sense now.


I'm having camera trouble at the moment otherwise i'd get up some pics of an LS head and an SJM head for comparison.
No counter sunk screws on an SJM/SJP.
Maybe Boyd could offer some assistance here.

Bear with me and i'll try to kick start my camera into action again.

Jon

[Gannet]

Jon,

Do you think that SJM/SJP heads all had DO NOT REMOVE, while the LS head didn't? It looks possibly that is the case, but I don't really know - it is just a suggestion.
Jeremy

[headdownarseup]

Just been out to the "sweat box" for a look see. (tis rather warm at the moment)
FV11716 has no lettering cast into the head. (i think original)
LS35744 has no lettering cast into the head. (i think original)
LS18849 has DONT REMOVE (this could be an historic "running repair")
LS36688 has DONT REMOVE (another historic "running repair")
SJM210 has DONT REMOVE (cheese head screws)
SJP29215 has DONT REMOVE (conventional bolt attachment)

So perhaps it might be safe to assume that "little model 40's" DO NOT have the cast instruction on the head, whereas the later SJM/SJP motors do have the cast instruction on both types of cylinder heads.

Jon

[Gannet]

Thanks Jon,
Are the DO NOT REMOVE heads any different, visually or otherwise, to the the no lettering heads?


Tam,
Could you look at yr late LSs and see whether they have any lettering on their heads and are they original heads to the best of yr knowledge?

Jeremy
(I am off boating for a few days, so might not be able to contribute for a bit)

[tambikerboy]

Ls37902 blank
Lls1607 blank
Lls363g4 blank
Sjp27003l do not remove
Sjp32384 do not remove
Sjp640k6 do not remove
Sjm38085 do not remove
IT'S GETTING DARK DOWN THERE AND SHE DOESN'T LIKE SPIDERS ....

[tambikerboy]

Ls37902 no lettering.