Saving Old Seagulls

The small booklets issued by BS called Operating Instructions seem to have an edition number on the front - at least the once that i have seen have this information.
1.One that I have seen is titled The Little Model Forty, which somebody has written a serial number from 1950 on it. This is the Fourteenth Edition as stated on the front. Phone number is quoted at Poole 818 and the address is Seagull House, The Quay, Poole.
2. Another one that I have seen does not specify the relevant model, but the content in one section refers to the main and pilot jets. So presumably for the 102 series. The phone and address are as above. It states to be the Twelfth Edition.
3. Another one titled for models FV, FVP, LS, SJM, SJP. This is stated to be the Eighth Edition. It has a later phone number - Poole 1641 and the address is Fleets Bridge. The SJM/SJP was initially produced in 1955.

So, I presume there is no apparent logical sequence to the edition number, or is there? There must be early editions out there which might explain things.

Jeremy

You would have thought so Jeremy.
It makes perfect sense to start at issue number 1 and follow on from there. Does anyone know how many different issues there are?
But these are seagulls we're talking about, so i guess anything goes.

Jon

I suspect they are in number order, but may not be original to the motor number written on them.
According to some, seagull moved to new premises at Fleets Bridge in the mid 50's.
I don't have much seagull paper work, just some parts brochures for extras, like the carry handle, an off orange late parts book, no addition stated.
Plus a complete original 102 envelope with all paperwork unused, indicating a 5% price increase from the date stamped.
I don't have a great amount of seagulls to worry about the manuals too much myself, as my collecting is eclectic.
I was chuffed getting beautiful outboards book for £20.
Most have more than me, so it shouldn't take long to work it all out.

Let me get this right

Jeremy has a booklet that outlines models within the 40 series dated from the mid 50's BUT it has an 8th edition,(quite early by my reckonings) and yet others from an earlier time period with a HIGHER edition number.
That doesn't make any sense.
Surely they'd be in some sort of numerical sequence. Issue number 1 for models OA etc. By the time you arrive at the 8th edition (that's if there was 1 new issue every year, it could be as many as 2 editions for some years) it would put things somewhere in the late 1930's wouldn't it?

(Jeremy, are you sure it's not 18th edition? It would make a lot more sense being somewhere in the mid (ish) 50's for the engine series you mention)

I've got one here dated 7-53 (presumably July 1953 when it was PRINTED) 18th edition for the 102 models. Not that i collect BS paperwork at all,i leave that to the others, but i am interested from 42 onwards for obvious reasons.

If i've got this remotely right, a 12th edition could be somewhere in 1948/9 and if it's mentioning main and pilot jets it's more than likely a 102 booklet.

I don't think the printers would have made a mistake like this without double checking first.
They must follow some sort of sequence surely.

Anyone got a Marston operating booklet so we can double check? Or even a WW2 operators manual. Any of them about?


Jon

I don't think that number 7-53 is a date, as I have one with 6-52 and it says Prices we're afraid are Plus 5% from nov, 1st 1951?

Jon

Marston paperwork bears no relationship to anything British Seagull.

Isn't Jeremy's booklet the little model 40 up to SJM/SJP version, & not including any 102's which on this basis should have had their own version with it's own series of edition numbers.

Remember all this is a very long time before the birth of ink jet, laser & offset litho printers so all these booklets were typeset an expensive & laborious procedure, so it's logical that these would be only modified when something changed that made this a necessity & certainly not on an annual basis, so they just keep using the old book until forced to update it.

I have copies of just about all of the known Marston literature & the WW2 operators manual was produced by the Ministry of Supply or which department produced this type of documentation for the military.

Did you locate any paperwork for the first of the post war Seagulls?

I think we maybe looking at different sets of editions, one for the forty's and one for the 102's

I think this is what you're talking about. Sorry it's a copy as my old man has the original.



This came with his mid/late 50's seagull 102

Exactly what i was trying to describe (thanks Mark)

Look at the bottom left corner of the cover page. I can see this one says 10-59 . I think this is when the booklet was PRINTED and not necessarily updated as and when required to do so. 21st edition, which sort of fits with my rough workings out so far. Bearing in mind that the information within the booklet probably didn't need to be re-written for up to 3-4 years at a continuous stretch. The guys doing the printing however might want to place a date verification somewhere.

Lets forget anything pre-war for now and at least try and concentrate on post war. I'll get back to the earlier stuff later on once we've worked out what's going on here. Charles, as a rule i generally don't collect seagull paperwork except on the odd occasion. As for early post war documents i'm not actively looking for any.

Ignoring any scribblings that a previous owner may have written on it (which as you say Keith, might not refer to the manual or motors in question) lets take a closer look at the 40 series booklets for the moment.

Jeremy can you oblige with this at all?

See if this one makes sense date wise.

Keith,
I think it possibly/probably does make sense. One cannot be sure, but it is distinctly possible that BS raised prices and that perhaps the version set up and/or printed in June 1952 (ie 6-52) wasn't altered. It wouldn't be the first or last price list to be over stamped with a price increase!
But the real issue is whether those numbers (ie 6-52) are representative of a date, I think it is obvious that they are. Precisely what date they represent, I am not sure, but probably the art work date.

I am just waiting to scan the front page of the 8th and the 14th edition of the Operating Instructions for 40 series and will post them here when I have done that.

Has anybody else got an early Operating Instruction booklet that they can put up the first page? Let us share what information we have. There is little point in holding onto information individually.

Cheers,
Jeremy

No date or numbers on this one china's just lettering

L/FE

Looking at that it seems that they up-issued the document each time a new model came along, thus adding an ever longer list of removable head model types.

Unlikely Adrian, the Operating Instructions & the British Seagull Handbook don't really refer to any specific motor details, it seems to be a publication the came free with your new Seagull, it's only just a general overview of how to mount, run & look after your new outboard, from the ones I've seen.

Details that would require little change between the little model 40 & the model 75.

Keith P's booklet is a spare parts & price list, which I'm finding it very difficult to understand why you'd print a price list in June 1952 containing prices that are already 9 or 10 months out of date, that would require the effort of having a 5% price increase stamp made & every copy stamped in red, which logically would not support this being a date code!

Though it could be a mistake & some poor Seagull employee ordered new price lists & forgot to give the typesetters the current prices, & rather than throw them away, just had them stamped, logical during rationing.

Pretty much what i was thinking as well Chas. (but it's 52 not 62 for Keiths price list)
What we really need is a 102 "Spares list" from 1950 or slightly earlier and compare 1951 "new" prices to be able to confirm either way.
A spares list from 53 would be a good idea too. No point in guessing any of this.

Unless there was a real need to ammend the details within either booklet (for example when a "new model" came along) then the information within these booklets is probably going to remain largely unchanged. Parts lists/prices on the other hand (and i've got 2 of these) show similar "alterations" in the terminology used, and like the operators manual seem largely untouched.

The question that Jeremy originally asked at the start of this topic was "is there a sequence that the edition number follows"?
As we've already discussed so far it makes logical sense that earlier EDITIONS represent earlier model types despite the information being fairly generic for most model types.

Pre war booklets for the Marston's are probably going to be slightly different again, but i don't think vastly different as we're talking about the same company that manufactured these outboards (albeit with a slightly different name from the pre war years) and in my opinion very relevant to this topic. From looking through the main SOS site in the Marston section there are some old adverts etc. but interestingly (from what i can see any way) a mouldy moth eaten "operators manual" . It would be interesting to see within the pages of some of these very early manuals for a better look. Even a photocopy will do, as long as all the pages are there.
Can anyone help with this that doesn't mind sharing with us?


Keith, going by your pics i'd say this booklet was printed at some point in 52. I'd guess that some time before november 1st 1951 there were probably a batch (100's maybe 1000's) of these booklets printed and distributed to coincide with the price increase. A second batch of booklets (possibly where your one came from) might have been printed a bit later after the price increase.
It doesn't look as though it's been over-stamped to me as the edges (of the red text) are too crisp and far too neat. If this was a rubber stamp the red would have faded a bit and be a bit wonky compared to the rest of the text . Rationing or no rationing, inks were still available in a huge choice of colours back then. It's quite easy to make your own and i suspect the printers would have done this sort of thing regularly anyway.

The spares list i have in front of me (8-59) has SYDENHAMS-PRINTERS-BOURNEMOUTH on the back page. Are there any more with the same printers name? It's possible BS used the same printers from the time they moved to Poole right till the end. Who knows!
I'm going to see if i can research anything about this company.


Tam
Trust you to go and spoil it!
Your booklet would suggest that the models this booklet referred to was a little bit after the "little model 40" range. CP's didn't start until 58 so maybe 3 or 4 years after the last of the little 40's. It could even be a bit later than that.
As for the lettering in the bottom left corner i'm not sure yet, but given some time we can work this out with some help from others out there.
We'll get there.


Jon