The choice of the right two-stroke oil seems to be a hot item.
I must confess that I have never made a point of it.
In the past 35 years or so, I have used three kinds of two-stroke oil, for moped, motorbike and outboard engines: premix oil, injection type oil and outboard oil.
In my naïve way of thinking, I thought Outboard 2-stroke oil was composed to limit the environmental damage. Period.
Since I discovered S.O.S., I learned that one has to be careful not to use the wrong kind of 2-stoke oil, since that would lead to powerloss and damage. That one should stick to marine-grade oil, since a watercooled outboard runs cooler than an aircooled one.
So I began to ponder . . .
Why would any oil manufacturer make a high-tech oil for a prehistoric engine? British Seagulls were designed in the 1930's. It is fair to assume that a 1960's or 1970's Seagull uses the same know-how, so it would still have near-thirties specs. And could / should use the same petrol / oil mixture, i.e. 10 : 1, of an 'oldfashioned' kind of oil.
Then what is the point of using an expensive (synthetic) outboard oil?
When in the Good Old Days, one would use a simple, non-detergent, SAE 30?
I have been searching to find the answer myself, until, to my astonishment, I read an item on two-stroke oil that describes marine grade 2-stroke oil as oil for high temperature engines !
The author claims : """Outboard engines are characterized by their constant speed, high output operation. They are usually set at a desired high speed and continue at that speed until the destination is reached and then throttled down. """
His conclusion is: """Water-cooled two-cycle engine oils require higher levels of a heavy oil to prevent piston and cylinder wall scuffing. Because of their high average piston temperature, lighter oils evaporate too quickly from the piston cylinder contact area. The heavy base oil, which vaporizes at very high temperatures, resists evaporation and remains in place to provide lubrication to the piston and cylinder. """
I don't believe British Seagull engines categorize as high-temperature engines, thus marine-grade 2-stroke oil is the wrong kind of oil ? ! ?
Is there a doctor in the house?
full article to be found here: http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oilworks.htm
Two Stroke Oil
Moderators: John@sos, charlesp, Charles uk, RickUK, Petergalileo
-
Dr.Lighthouse
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:29 pm
- Location: De Panne - Belgium
Firstly, there are two kinds of people in the world: Petro-chemists and the rest of us! My theory on this matter is as follows.
Since the old days of combustion engine invention, everything, repeat everything, has become much more complex and specialised in engineering. In those simpler days of Seagull design, you had a choice of maybe 10 types of oil imade world wide. There was consistency and simplicity in the world (Sigh.....). Engineers designed designed to suit the specs of the (then) limited scalar product range of oils. SAE 10, 20, 30, 60, 90, 120, 140. SAE30 was SAE 30, for cars. boats planes, motor cycles, whatever. Then came the Japanese motor boom, and since then even more variations and minor categories of oils have arisen. Nowadays, oil manufacturers synthesise an enormous range: for air-cooled motor bikes, water cooled-motor bikes, deisel cars, deisel trucks, petrol cars, LPG cars, cold running 2 strokes, hot running 2 strokes, cold running water cooled irrigation pumps, hot running air cooled water cooled iirrigation pumps, etc , etc, ad nauseum. So the old style motors (most of which they assume are now dead and buried) must "best fit in" to what the modern market and marketting blurbs now dictate we "should" be using. (Yawn....).
So, I think the best rule of thumb is (1) NOT to follow the advertising blurbs which are theory and laboratory and sales based (2) NOT to ask Joe Blow down the road what he uses in his Mercury Outboard to save money through the years from his mate's specials in the auto parts shop (3) NOT to search the web and become more and more confused by all the differing opinions and "expert" statements (4) TO follow the dictates of the original manufacturers who know best THEIR machines as used by THEIR customers coupled with (5) TO follow the experiences of the majority of LOCAL users in your area (read climate and application) (6) TO have a nice cup of tea while enjoying the lakes or rivers or oceans or whereever you go boating, whilst rationalising that it probably doesn't really all matter in the big scheme of things so long as there is plenty of smoke pouring out the back of your beloved British Seagull and that you are making SOME WAY against the tide!
That's my 2 bob's worth.
Since the old days of combustion engine invention, everything, repeat everything, has become much more complex and specialised in engineering. In those simpler days of Seagull design, you had a choice of maybe 10 types of oil imade world wide. There was consistency and simplicity in the world (Sigh.....). Engineers designed designed to suit the specs of the (then) limited scalar product range of oils. SAE 10, 20, 30, 60, 90, 120, 140. SAE30 was SAE 30, for cars. boats planes, motor cycles, whatever. Then came the Japanese motor boom, and since then even more variations and minor categories of oils have arisen. Nowadays, oil manufacturers synthesise an enormous range: for air-cooled motor bikes, water cooled-motor bikes, deisel cars, deisel trucks, petrol cars, LPG cars, cold running 2 strokes, hot running 2 strokes, cold running water cooled irrigation pumps, hot running air cooled water cooled iirrigation pumps, etc , etc, ad nauseum. So the old style motors (most of which they assume are now dead and buried) must "best fit in" to what the modern market and marketting blurbs now dictate we "should" be using. (Yawn....).
So, I think the best rule of thumb is (1) NOT to follow the advertising blurbs which are theory and laboratory and sales based (2) NOT to ask Joe Blow down the road what he uses in his Mercury Outboard to save money through the years from his mate's specials in the auto parts shop (3) NOT to search the web and become more and more confused by all the differing opinions and "expert" statements (4) TO follow the dictates of the original manufacturers who know best THEIR machines as used by THEIR customers coupled with (5) TO follow the experiences of the majority of LOCAL users in your area (read climate and application) (6) TO have a nice cup of tea while enjoying the lakes or rivers or oceans or whereever you go boating, whilst rationalising that it probably doesn't really all matter in the big scheme of things so long as there is plenty of smoke pouring out the back of your beloved British Seagull and that you are making SOME WAY against the tide!
That's my 2 bob's worth.
it is good to know that you have to run a seagull on the right 2 stroke oil or you can do damage,
It is a bit strange that these motors were designed and used before these
oils were invented and now it is so important to use them,
I bought my first seagull in 1974 and used 30 weight engine oil and it worked fine, just had to carry a spare plug just in case, no fancy 2 stroke oil then, even now I don't worry about it but then how can you shorten the life of an outboard that is already 64 years old.
It is a bit strange that these motors were designed and used before these
oils were invented and now it is so important to use them,
I bought my first seagull in 1974 and used 30 weight engine oil and it worked fine, just had to carry a spare plug just in case, no fancy 2 stroke oil then, even now I don't worry about it but then how can you shorten the life of an outboard that is already 64 years old.
-
Dr.Lighthouse
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:29 pm
- Location: De Panne - Belgium
O.M.G. ! I've awaken the Aussies
G'dday and thanks mates.
You just confirmed my motto: k.i.s.s.
(keep it simple stupid)
When I was a lad (there we go again..) we had a kind of a Puch-gang,
and all of the members added some ... castor oil - bought in the local pharmacy - to the petrol mix.
I bet it didn't help lubricating, but boy did it smell nice !
I know of one person (discretion forbids me to say it was my sister)
that mixed petrol with. . . salad oil (I can't recall if it was peanut or sunflower) and used it in her Mobylette.
And it ran and ran and ran. . . with a touch of chips.
G'dday and thanks mates.
You just confirmed my motto: k.i.s.s.
(keep it simple stupid)
When I was a lad (there we go again..) we had a kind of a Puch-gang,
and all of the members added some ... castor oil - bought in the local pharmacy - to the petrol mix.
I bet it didn't help lubricating, but boy did it smell nice !
I know of one person (discretion forbids me to say it was my sister)
that mixed petrol with. . . salad oil (I can't recall if it was peanut or sunflower) and used it in her Mobylette.
And it ran and ran and ran. . . with a touch of chips.
Yes I think we are awake down here,
Just don't mention the rugby.
Guess what my first bike was that I bought in 1973.
Thats right a Puch.
It was a very reliable bike and I ended up swapping it for a transistor radio and also buying a vespa with no brakes.
Also on the subject of seagull oils
I know of a person who had a 20 kilometre trip to do with his seagull and found it had run dry on gearbox oil, he had none handy so filled the gearbox up with peanut butter and that got him back, No not the crunchy brand.
Just don't mention the rugby.
Guess what my first bike was that I bought in 1973.
Thats right a Puch.
It was a very reliable bike and I ended up swapping it for a transistor radio and also buying a vespa with no brakes.
Also on the subject of seagull oils
I know of a person who had a 20 kilometre trip to do with his seagull and found it had run dry on gearbox oil, he had none handy so filled the gearbox up with peanut butter and that got him back, No not the crunchy brand.
-
Dr.Lighthouse
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:29 pm
- Location: De Panne - Belgium
I bought my Puch (new) with the money I earned working during the Christmas Holiday 1972 ! I just turned 16 . . .
My first travel was a 160 km trip to the seaside (to where I live nowadays...)
I had a 1 liter glass bottle with me, (ex-lemonade) filled with bright red two-stroke oil.
On one occasion the woman at the petrolstation asked me if it was grenadine syrup.
I confirmed that, and told her it made the engine run really sweet . . .
My first travel was a 160 km trip to the seaside (to where I live nowadays...)
I had a 1 liter glass bottle with me, (ex-lemonade) filled with bright red two-stroke oil.
On one occasion the woman at the petrolstation asked me if it was grenadine syrup.
I confirmed that, and told her it made the engine run really sweet . . .
I think the vast majority of Seagulls have been running for years on oil that was not the recommended type. Originally the recommendation was for good quality oil that was soluble in petrol. This was the thirties, in Marston days, when TCW etc was not available, the motors then were running on an 8 to 1 mix, and the bearings were similar in dimensions, if a little larger, to those of later models. The oils recommended specifically were all types that have not been produced for years.
The 102's also had this recommendation - the accent was on the oil's properties of solubility in petrol.
It's only in the later instruction manuals that specific references were made to particular types of oil as being essential. By then the bearing metal was different (cheaper) and the bearing surfaces had become a little smaller.
Whilst I run my small flock on marine grade oil I have in the past used ordinary mower or motorbike 2 stroke oil without batting an eyelid - I keep to the original 10 to 1 and for the small number of hours that they do I have every confidence they'll be fine.
The 102's also had this recommendation - the accent was on the oil's properties of solubility in petrol.
It's only in the later instruction manuals that specific references were made to particular types of oil as being essential. By then the bearing metal was different (cheaper) and the bearing surfaces had become a little smaller.
Whilst I run my small flock on marine grade oil I have in the past used ordinary mower or motorbike 2 stroke oil without batting an eyelid - I keep to the original 10 to 1 and for the small number of hours that they do I have every confidence they'll be fine.
I have run a Seagull Forty Featherweight for two years, some twenty seven years ago, five weeks a year, covering a great part of the British canal system and running for about six hours a day. I used straight SAE 30 oil with no problems. After a two week holiday I would take out the plug, give it a quick brush and carry on. No problems.
John will probably crucify me for this post but it is true.
Regards.
Alan.
John will probably crucify me for this post but it is true.
Regards.
Alan.
So Which Oil For My 102 1947
I have recently acquired a 102, Model ACR 3882 with AMAL carb. This I have run with a 10:1 unleaded petrol mix using normal motorbike 2 stroke oil. The little sod gets to about 1/3rd throttle then there is no increase in rpm as throttle is opened just an increase in induction noise. It will rev higher with out the prop engaged, just briefly reved as no load.
It starts first or second pull, there is water passing through and it runs fairly warm, u can still touch the head casing.
Any ideas as to why it wont rev?
It starts first or second pull, there is water passing through and it runs fairly warm, u can still touch the head casing.
Any ideas as to why it wont rev?
30 grade oils!
Alan is not the only one to run motors on 30 grade! If you can still get hold of it cheaply, why not! At least we do not have the lead in the fuel that caused the whiskers as well! Plug cleaning was a tricky hot juggling sport I recall!!
Seagull recommended 30 grade years ago, but you had to pre mix it in a can! Shake it! Modern two stroke is what they call self mixing, so you could get away with putting it straight in the tank of the old lambretta and tipping fuel on top. Don't try that with 30 grade! You get a plug of neat oil down the fuel pipe!!
Years ago, I have even seen a chum use old used 30 grade motor oil, strained through his wife's stockings, as the mix for his Seagull! Had to change plugs a lot! Never had to strip it down and it probably rusted away before internal damage was done that otherwise might have stopped it!
The TCW2 or 3 is best for Seagulls, but you can get away with the other sort for stimmers, bikes etc in emergency!
How about Bio-Degradable?? Used to see it available locally, seems to have dissapeared..... That is the ultimate answer to those who think our 30 year old recycled Seagulls are environmentally unfriendly!
(Morris Minors have just won the 'Green Apple' Award for being recyclable, Seagulls ought to have the same award!)
Regards,
John
SOS
Seagull recommended 30 grade years ago, but you had to pre mix it in a can! Shake it! Modern two stroke is what they call self mixing, so you could get away with putting it straight in the tank of the old lambretta and tipping fuel on top. Don't try that with 30 grade! You get a plug of neat oil down the fuel pipe!!
Years ago, I have even seen a chum use old used 30 grade motor oil, strained through his wife's stockings, as the mix for his Seagull! Had to change plugs a lot! Never had to strip it down and it probably rusted away before internal damage was done that otherwise might have stopped it!
The TCW2 or 3 is best for Seagulls, but you can get away with the other sort for stimmers, bikes etc in emergency!
How about Bio-Degradable?? Used to see it available locally, seems to have dissapeared..... That is the ultimate answer to those who think our 30 year old recycled Seagulls are environmentally unfriendly!
(Morris Minors have just won the 'Green Apple' Award for being recyclable, Seagulls ought to have the same award!)
Regards,
John
SOS