1977 40+ Not Clogged, But No Cooling Flow.

[TJCeeJay]

Howdy all, I only got my Gull a couple months ago, and until I was able to get the correct 2-stroke and gear oil I didn't try to run it. But, I have all the necessities now so I changed the gear oil, cleaned up the tank and carb, filled her up with fresh fuel, stuck 'er in a test tank, and gave the cord a yank. She started of the FIRST pull. I was ecstatic! Then rather quickly I wasn't so ecstatic. There was no flow of cooling water out of the tell-tale in the block. I revved it up to 1/2 throttle, and nothing. I brought it down to the dock, stuck it on the back of my skiff, started 'er up; and still no flow.

First, you should know that it has only been run in a test tank for maybe 1/2 hour total since she was built. Until I brought her to the dock to see if the water would flow, she'd never seen salt water. I took her back up to the test tank and stuck a small nozzle from the garden hose into the tell-tale, and water flowed quite well out the intake holes at the bottom of the leg. So, being that she's as pristine as is possible, do any of you knowledgeable folks have any clue as to what in the world is going wrong? According to the FAQ on the SOS main site, it's almost impossible for a Seagull pump to fail unless an owner took it apart. Well, it's never been taken apart, and I can't figure anything else to try aside from, ahem! taking it apart.

Help! Please!

Thanks all!

Just thought of something; how long does it take for the pump to fill the system? I only ran it for a minute in the tank, and a minute on the skiff. Was I too impatient?

Thanks!

[Collector Inspector]

Someone may have had the "Pump" apart earlier.

Yeh, pull it down.

Maybe it is upside down.

Pics please aye.

B

[Stelios_Rjk]

As B said the pump rotor may be placed upside down.

There is a gasket to seal the water pump housing on the gearbox. Sometimes below the gasket the gearbox bends and this stops the water circulation.

Or maybe by back flushing the engine you may unblock something in the water jacket and you see water coming out.

Also while testing in a test bin with the prop on, waves are created that may prevent water to reach the water pump. Just to have it in your mind.

60 seconds are more than enough water to come out.


Good luck!

[phil]

The only way you can claim the water jacket and water circulation system are clear is by having it apart, end of story!
After all you have only had it for a few months and it is 37 years old.
There is a tendency for some people to lie, exaggerate or stretch the truth when selling things.
If you want a wall hanging motor then hang it up and admire it. If you want to use it open it up starting with the easy part (ie checking the inlet, rotor, water tube), break apart at crankcase flange/drivetube joint, before removing head try to circulate water through block, if no go or lack of volume, head has to come off.

[JERSEYMAN]

Every time I take a cylinder head off a seagull I can never believe how it ran so well with so much rust, gunge and hard cr@p in the waterways ( it shows how good and tolerant seagull's really are ). I don't think I have ever seen a fully clear waterway unless I have cleared it myself.

People will say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" which I totally abide by but if you really want to be sure with these old motors, and you truly need it to be dependable than there is no other way than to take the risk and remove the head (lots of heat from a blowtorch, don't be tempted to unfasten the head bolts cold ), this is after all a maintenance issue. Water flow is not a good indicator, A long time back I had a 40+ motor with good, warm flow and when the head was removed, it was completely blocked apart from a direct path through the water jacket, this was a real eye opener for me and it changed my view on this "good flow" method of inspection

I cannot afford any of my outboards to have suspect reliability, where I am, when the sea runs it really does run, make a mistake and you are on the rocks

[TJCeeJay]

Hey all! Thank you for the suggestions! It was my fault that there was no flow. Prop wash! I guess that the prop was too close to the docks and was causing a problem when it was on the skiff. (Couldn't imagine such a thing, but it must have been the problem; because when I free wheeled the prop in the test tank I got a magnificent flow of water out the tell-tale.) I could understand prop wash in the tub messing up the flow, but at the dock? Ah well, it's running like a charm and pumping like no tomorrow now, so all is good.

I'm running her at 10 to 1 for the first tank, then I'll go to the 25 to 1 that the Bing is able to run at. But my goodness she's a stinker at 10 to 1!

BTW: On the Bing carb; is the choke on when the lever is up or down? It doesn't seem to make much of a difference in the smoke or revs when up or down, so I'd love to know.

Thanks a million guys! And here's a Youtube vid of the wee beastie runnin' like a charm. (Smoking like a Lady of the Night after 100 sailors, on their first day off ship in a year, but she's a sweetheart!) lol!

http://youtu.be/-9QkyqQphNE

Thanks again everyone!

Cheers!

Oh! And I can actually say with certainty that she's only got 1/2 an hour of runtime in her life. Here's the story: A friend of a friend bought it new in crate years upon years ago. He never used it, then sold it to my best friend. My friend never used it, and sold it back to his friend. His friend sold it back to my friend, and then my friend sold it back to his friend. (Confused yet?) During all those decades of back-and forth's it was only run in a tank twice. And never put in the ocean or even a lake. She's effectively brand spakin' new. Which was why I was so confused by it's lack of pumping at the dock. The tub I can understand, but at the dock kinda' messed me up, and had me scratching my head. Anyhoo, now I know; keep the prop away from anything that can send propwash back towards the cooling intake, and all is good.

Thanx again, again, and Cheers!

[Collector Inspector]

Watched the videos. Outstanding country you are in, really!

What you are wearing is basically a DryAzaBone australian thing?

You took these vids in just the right place but are you going to wait until 25:1 before put it into that river/lake/dam/really cool waterway?

I ask the question because ANY fresh water in Western Australia is deemed as drinking water. We do not have that much left. Next 10 years Perth will be dry, we have no future water because of politics.

Nice spot aye!

And I like the young pine sapling in the last vid. Imagine having pine trees next to water?

You are so lucky with that all Mate.

B

[Stelios_Rjk]

Very well done!
Nice to be something as simple as that!
The engine sounds really good. The choke was off on the video. Use it with 1:25 mixture. Will be less smoke.
Saltwater is not a good option for Seagulls, a lake or a river is the best but since you are next to the sea good flushing is the key.

Happy Seagulling!

[phil]

That's great! Beautiful motor, interesting it does not want to pump with prop on in tank, but not uncommon I guess. All of my 40s and Centuries pump fine in the tank with the prop turning. I'm using half a plastic 205l. drum with a 2x8 bolted to the inside.
Did the google earth thing for Butedale, wow you are seriously isolated! Bet the fishing, crabbing, etc is super! Very nice digs? How far to get groceries you need, med care, and that sort of thing?

By the way, the throttle cable is not meant to go through the little hole on the tiller handle. The throttle control knob should be positioned 2 1/4 " from the center of the pivot bolt according to the Seagull maintenance manual, in that position the tiller works as a fine throttle control, lift the tiller handle above level and the revs increase, below level speed decreases, it will not do that successfully where the throttle control knob is now located.

Best Wishes, Phil

[TJCeeJay]

HI all! Thank you for the thumbs up!

"What you are wearing is basically a DryAzaBone australian thing?

You took these vids in just the right place but are you going to wait until 25:1 before put it into that river/lake/dam/really cool waterway?"

Did the google earth thing for Butedale, wow you are seriously isolated! Bet the fishing, crabbing, etc is super! Very nice digs? How far to get groceries you need, med care, and that sort of thing?


Hi! Close on the jacket! It's an Australian Outback Collection, Short Drover. Made in Canada actually. And the actual last one ever made (special order, special color) before they went out of business after 20+ years making awesome clothing. The water in the video is the bay that Butedale is on, and it's saltwater. I'll use the Gull on it for the first tank, to get myself accustomed to the motor. After the first tank is done I'll take it and my canoe up to the lake. It's pretty huge lake. The shoreline is 20+ km long, and is the cleanest water on the British Columbia coast. (Literally! The water was tested 3 years ago coming from the creek (which is fed by the lake) and the results were staggering; 0.01 PPM dissolved mineral content! The cleanest bottled water in the world has over thirty-five thousand times the mineral content. (350 PPM) Staggering, eh?

And yup! The locale is a fishing mecca. In the harbor I have Tiger Prawn. (Big shrimp) In the inlet across the channel from Butedale there are Dungeness Crab. (Which taste like butter dipped crab without the need for butter. Mmmmm!) At the tip of the little island between Butedale and Klekane Inlet there are Halibut at slack low tide. Along the island is Rock Cod, Brown Cod, Black Cod, Red Snapper, and oodles more! In the Spring, Summer, and early Autumn there are Salmon in the harbor that can be caught right off the docks. And at the lake; it takes longer to get the cutthroat trout off the hook and onto the stringer than it does to catch them. (25 to 35 cm / 10 to 14 inches) So yup again! The fishing is incredible. As for groceries and medical care; it's over 100 km (62 miles) by boat to the nearest grocery store or medical services. (City of Kitimat) There is a First Nation village 35 km (21 miles) to the North, with a population of ~150, and another First Nation community 45 km South, with a population of ~400. So I'm pretty isolated. (And I LOVE it!) lol! The scenery here is unparalleled to any place I have ever been (or seen). It's got it all. 4000+ foot mountains, crystal clear mountain lakes, 150+ foot tall old growth trees, Humpback whales, Orcas, Seals and Sea Lions, and coolest of all; Spirit Bears. They are black bears that have a double recessive gene which causes around 10% of the bears here on the island to have pure white fur. They aren't albino's; they have black noses and brown eyes. They are some pretty cool animals!

Here's a picture of one. (Not my picture; unfortunately.)


Here's a video of the Butedale area. It's a fairly long vid, but I GUARANTEE; when it's over, you will have to debate with yourself if you want to watch it again immediately. lol! (Based on the reactions of everyone who's seen the vid.)

http://youtu.be/X8TH9dyf4xE

In the first scene of the video look for a little blue dot at the bottom left of the giant waterfall. That's me, and it'll give you a perspective of the size of the falls.

Here's a vid of the lake. It's much shorter! And to give you a perspective of the waterfall in the beginning of this video; the visible part of the falls is 4 times taller than the falls in the first vid. And the "wedge" of rock in the middle of the falls is over 100 feet (30 meters) tall.

http://youtu.be/Ru4Ld3-lLj0

"By the way, the throttle cable is not meant to go through the little hole on the tiller handle. The throttle control knob should be positioned 2 1/4 " from the center of the pivot bolt according to the Seagull maintenance manual, in that position the tiller works as a fine throttle control, lift the tiller handle above level and the revs increase, below level speed decreases, it will not do that successfully where the throttle control knob is now located."

Thank you! Good to know!

It truly is a remarkable location I live in. The scenery is astounding, the wildlife is remarkable, the water from the lake is unfiltered in any way, and I drink it straight from the tap. The People of the First Nation's village to the North of me (Hartley Bay) are without exception; the most incredibly kind, generous, caring, and giving people I have ever encountered. You may have heard about the sinking of the Queen of the North, the BC ferry that sank in 2006? Well, it happened a few miles from Hartley Bay at around 1 am; and literally, every man in town jumped into their boats and raced to save the passengers, while the women prepared the town for 100 passengers to be taken into their homes. They are AWESOME People. I've spent nearly 2 months total in Hartley Bay over the last few years, and I've had innumerable offers to stay with this family or that family, or use this empty house or that empty house during my stays there. And of course offers to join them for meals, and an opportunity to try authentic homemade First Nations foods. (Crab cakes, seaweed wraps, Salmon cooked over an open fire with course salt and birch syrup spread upon the flesh while it's cooking...Mmmm!) Absolutely remarkable folks!

So yeah, I feel pretty blessed to live here. Indeed I do! For those who don't have time to watch the vids, here's a few pictures of the Butedale area.

Here's the falls at ocean level.

That's me at the bottom left.

This is the falls at the lake.

The total height of the falls is a little under 600 feet, the visible part is around 400 feet.

Here's a shot of the lake one frosty morning.


here's a shot from the docks looking out across the channel one evening


And a super lucky shot that I got a few weeks ago.



It's an awesome spot to live; believe you me.

Anyhoo, I shouldn't take up TOO much more of yer time, so I'll say THANK YOU all! for all your input and positive words. Truly appreciated!

Cheers!

[phil]

It sure is an amazingly beautiful place! Even though I am aware of the yearly precipitation amounts!!

Thank you so much for your efforts to do the post. I'm sure that even if you have to leave there at some point, it will always be remembered as a very special time and place in your life.

Here is hoping that the Northern Gateway pipeline never gets built!! No amount of money can ever justify destroying such an Eden.

Thanks again, I do not think I will ever be able to see it in person due to health issues.

Best Wishes and thanks, Phil

[sassi232]

How can you use a Seagull in such a pristine environment ?! They are great motors,but pollute like there is no tomorrow!!
I only would use one as a back-up-otherwise a four stroke. Please don't feel I'm having a go at you,but hope you see my point.