The exhaust pipe in cromed brass is 17 3/8 inch long on my TC 65 175 Seagull 102 with clutch. Would like to make it to a long version for the sailing boat.
I have bought most of the long type nitty gritty from Mr Aluminum's junk yard. This includes a aluminum exhaust tube 22 inches long. This suggests that the aluinum tube is 4 5/8 inch longer than the short version.
Is the above measure correct for the long shaft 102 exhaust pipe or is it scrapped from a yonger seagull cousin?
Difference in a found scrap long drive shaft 25 7/8 and the original short 102 drive shaft 18 1/2 inches suggests a 7 3/8 difference in length.
Conclusion:how much longer is a long 102?
How much longer is a long 102?
Moderators: John@sos, charlesp, Charles uk, RickUK, Petergalileo
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40TPI
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- Location: North Buckinghamshire, 110 miles south of Yorkshire, England.
I'd suspect that not all 102s were all the same through the years. CharlesP is really your man here however the late publication Seagull Lit 02 parts list publication at page 9 has some information on exhaust, silencer and drive shaft lengths.
The chrome silencer on my TC326R7, part number 1310, is also 17 3/8 inches long which contradicts the parts list dimension. So either the draughtsman at BS had a worn ruler or the dimensions changed at some point by 1/8th! The parts list dimensions will at least get you the correct ratios between drive, casing and silencer.
Peter
The chrome silencer on my TC326R7, part number 1310, is also 17 3/8 inches long which contradicts the parts list dimension. So either the draughtsman at BS had a worn ruler or the dimensions changed at some point by 1/8th! The parts list dimensions will at least get you the correct ratios between drive, casing and silencer.
Peter
Thank you Peter,
This was solid information. Maybe someone has gone through the same operation or would know this by heart. I assume one way would be to take the measurements in the spares list and see what the difference is betwwen several parts and then try to assume what is a production tolerance and what is purely nominal measures.
kind regards
Sten
This was solid information. Maybe someone has gone through the same operation or would know this by heart. I assume one way would be to take the measurements in the spares list and see what the difference is betwwen several parts and then try to assume what is a production tolerance and what is purely nominal measures.
kind regards
Sten
40TPI wrote:I'd suspect that not all 102s were all the same through the years. CharlesP is really your man here however the late publication Seagull Lit 02 parts list publication at page 9 has some information on exhaust, silencer and drive shaft lengths.
The chrome silencer on my TC326R7, part number 1310, is also 17 3/8 inches long which contradicts the parts list dimension. So either the draughtsman at BS had a worn ruler or the dimensions changed at some point by 1/8th! The parts list dimensions will at least get you the correct ratios between drive, casing and silencer.
Peter
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40TPI
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:08 pm
- Location: North Buckinghamshire, 110 miles south of Yorkshire, England.
Ah sorry missed the 22 inch question.
That looks like it is meant to be a 22 1/4 inch part # 100/1310L for all longshaft Silver/Century/Plus combinations and all the way through to Models 80 &75.
Having quickly checked with what I believe is an accurate tape measure I find that on a poll of some of the exhausts here none exactly meet the dimensions in the parts lists! A couple of WSPCL out by about 1/8 and 3/16 , an EFNR by 1/4 and a 40+ by 3/16. All low. Only plus measurement was on a 40+, by a 1/16 . Makes you wonder if the machine was always set up by eye!
The answer seems to be to take the parts list dimension as approximate (+/- 1/4 inch tolerance ?). In fact looking at a 1959 " Simplicity itself!" parts list the silencer lengths are all described as "approximate". This word is omitted in the recent version!
Peter
That looks like it is meant to be a 22 1/4 inch part # 100/1310L for all longshaft Silver/Century/Plus combinations and all the way through to Models 80 &75.
Having quickly checked with what I believe is an accurate tape measure I find that on a poll of some of the exhausts here none exactly meet the dimensions in the parts lists! A couple of WSPCL out by about 1/8 and 3/16 , an EFNR by 1/4 and a 40+ by 3/16. All low. Only plus measurement was on a 40+, by a 1/16 . Makes you wonder if the machine was always set up by eye!
The answer seems to be to take the parts list dimension as approximate (+/- 1/4 inch tolerance ?). In fact looking at a 1959 " Simplicity itself!" parts list the silencer lengths are all described as "approximate". This word is omitted in the recent version!
Peter
I have just been to measure a couple of bits. It's raining outside here in Poole, but only when you brave the world outside, put a motor on the stand and get the camera out. Today was the day when I was going to spend 'half an hour' photographing a few motors for this year's Ibsley show, when we'll be offering the 'British Seagull Field Guide' as a bit of an experiment.
(Plug time - Charles's 'British Seagull Field Guide' is an experimental booklet that aims to answer the first question asked by most - ie what is it? It's not actually on sale, if it was I'd have asked John before plugging it, but that's the general idea...)
Half hour, yeah right. By the time you've actually found a non rain-bearing cloud (because the sun is so low the light was no good at all in direct sunlight) and burrowed to the bottom of a pile of rusty, oily, filthy motors to get to the one you want, freed off the clamp thumbscrews to get the thing secure on the stand, freed off the turning tension and wiped the motor over with an rag dampened with kerosene/paraffin to make it presentable as a photo model, then the cloud is going, and, dammit, you're so absolutely caked in solvent laden muck you really must go and wash your hands lest it gets all over the camera. I have got through so much soap today you wouldn't believe it.
And now I'm all packed up. I forgot the Model 110. Dammit. Will anyone recognise the model 75 I'm using instead? You betcha, someone will want to know why the gearshift is wrong. And that's right the model 110 is right at the back way over there....
But the SNP isn't at the back, it's on the bench.
But I can tell you that the exhausts for my SNP (Long), my SDP (Long) and even my barge pusher, are all 23 3/8 inches. There may be a small differences, because the silencers, in the 40's at any rate, were measured by hand, with the young lad holding the brass tube stock out in the road, another man holding up the traffic, the tube poking through a hole in the side of the building, and a man inside working the cutter. They would do this at times when the traffic was judged to be least, in case they upset the motorists.
This was Britain, victorious in war, practising how to be a high tech nation. I often mentally picture the engineers when we actually had a space industry ( We did actually launch a satellite once, all on our own. And it worked!) hand filing and hacksawing away at the hardware like they were lovingly crafting a Victorian Sporting gun. Bet the thing was hand engraved with Rose & Scroll patterns...
(Barge pushers derive their extra length because of the huge prop, and the big skeg to protect it)
The matching driveshaft tube is 26 1/8 inches. I've only measured the one from the SN, 'coz the rest are assembled, but I'm pretty confident that's your measurement. To derive the shaft length itself from this won't be a problem for you.
Remember there's plenty of leeway built into these dimensions. This was not a high precision product.
(Plug time - Charles's 'British Seagull Field Guide' is an experimental booklet that aims to answer the first question asked by most - ie what is it? It's not actually on sale, if it was I'd have asked John before plugging it, but that's the general idea...)
Half hour, yeah right. By the time you've actually found a non rain-bearing cloud (because the sun is so low the light was no good at all in direct sunlight) and burrowed to the bottom of a pile of rusty, oily, filthy motors to get to the one you want, freed off the clamp thumbscrews to get the thing secure on the stand, freed off the turning tension and wiped the motor over with an rag dampened with kerosene/paraffin to make it presentable as a photo model, then the cloud is going, and, dammit, you're so absolutely caked in solvent laden muck you really must go and wash your hands lest it gets all over the camera. I have got through so much soap today you wouldn't believe it.
And now I'm all packed up. I forgot the Model 110. Dammit. Will anyone recognise the model 75 I'm using instead? You betcha, someone will want to know why the gearshift is wrong. And that's right the model 110 is right at the back way over there....
But the SNP isn't at the back, it's on the bench.
But I can tell you that the exhausts for my SNP (Long), my SDP (Long) and even my barge pusher, are all 23 3/8 inches. There may be a small differences, because the silencers, in the 40's at any rate, were measured by hand, with the young lad holding the brass tube stock out in the road, another man holding up the traffic, the tube poking through a hole in the side of the building, and a man inside working the cutter. They would do this at times when the traffic was judged to be least, in case they upset the motorists.
This was Britain, victorious in war, practising how to be a high tech nation. I often mentally picture the engineers when we actually had a space industry ( We did actually launch a satellite once, all on our own. And it worked!) hand filing and hacksawing away at the hardware like they were lovingly crafting a Victorian Sporting gun. Bet the thing was hand engraved with Rose & Scroll patterns...
(Barge pushers derive their extra length because of the huge prop, and the big skeg to protect it)
The matching driveshaft tube is 26 1/8 inches. I've only measured the one from the SN, 'coz the rest are assembled, but I'm pretty confident that's your measurement. To derive the shaft length itself from this won't be a problem for you.
Remember there's plenty of leeway built into these dimensions. This was not a high precision product.
40TPI wrote:Ah sorry missed the 22 inch question.
That looks like it is meant to be a 22 1/4 inch part # 100/1310L for all longshaft Silver/Century/Plus combinations and all the way through to Models 80 &75.
Having quickly checked with what I believe is an accurate tape measure I find that on a poll of some of the exhausts here none exactly meet the dimensions in the parts lists! A couple of WSPCL out by about 1/8 and 3/16 , an EFNR by 1/4 and a 40+ by 3/16. All low. Only plus measurement was on a 40+, by a 1/16 . Makes you wonder if the machine was always set up by eye!
The answer seems to be to take the parts list dimension as approximate (+/- 1/4 inch tolerance ?). In fact looking at a 1959 " Simplicity itself!" parts list the silencer lengths are all described as "approximate". This word is omitted in the recent version!
Peter
Peter,
Even though exhaust comes from a silver/centurey..... etc. I think this might be possible to accomplish.
By the way do you have any idea if the aluminum exhaust pipe/silencer is more silent than the chromed brass one. If yes I will go back to my scrapman "Mr. Aluminum" to get a spare one to put in my other 102
(short version) and just cut it to correct lenght. Then I do not need to worry about corrosion under the chrome...
Sten
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40TPI
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:08 pm
- Location: North Buckinghamshire, 110 miles south of Yorkshire, England.
I think there might be a snag in your plan to make a long shaft 1.5 inches shorter than catalogue.
The Silver/Century 22 inch aluminium tube is 1.5 inches shorter than the intended longshaft TC model 102 #1311 23.5 inch silencer. The #1354 24 inch square drive shaft can easily be cut down 1.5 inches to match your shorter silencer but you must first check the bottom end of the drive casing tube. I don't have a longshaft 102 to check but all the Silver/Century longshaft casings are slightly thicker (2-3 mm?) than a standard shaft over most of their length. The bottom couple of inches is a reduced diameter to fit into the pump housing. (This extra thickness is the reason why depth adjusting collars are not suited to Silver/Century longshaft use)
So if the 102 long shaft casing is the same style as Silver/Century longshaft casing you can't just then chop a few inches off because the end will no longer fit the pump housing. CharlesP, once again, is the chap to confirm this either way.
I can't comment from experience on the acoustic difference between ali and brass silencers. Personally I'd doubt you will see any measurable
difference but I'm sure others might disagree. You will hear less noise with a water injected exhaust on the 102 than the later Silver/Century models. There are certainly those here who will gnash at the thought of an ali silencer on a 102 and those who will encourage to strip the chrome off and polish the brass underneath!! A personal choice!
Peter
The Silver/Century 22 inch aluminium tube is 1.5 inches shorter than the intended longshaft TC model 102 #1311 23.5 inch silencer. The #1354 24 inch square drive shaft can easily be cut down 1.5 inches to match your shorter silencer but you must first check the bottom end of the drive casing tube. I don't have a longshaft 102 to check but all the Silver/Century longshaft casings are slightly thicker (2-3 mm?) than a standard shaft over most of their length. The bottom couple of inches is a reduced diameter to fit into the pump housing. (This extra thickness is the reason why depth adjusting collars are not suited to Silver/Century longshaft use)
So if the 102 long shaft casing is the same style as Silver/Century longshaft casing you can't just then chop a few inches off because the end will no longer fit the pump housing. CharlesP, once again, is the chap to confirm this either way.
I can't comment from experience on the acoustic difference between ali and brass silencers. Personally I'd doubt you will see any measurable
difference but I'm sure others might disagree. You will hear less noise with a water injected exhaust on the 102 than the later Silver/Century models. There are certainly those here who will gnash at the thought of an ali silencer on a 102 and those who will encourage to strip the chrome off and polish the brass underneath!! A personal choice!
Peter
Thank You this was exactly the anwer I expected.charlesp wrote:I have just been to measure a couple of bits. It's raining outside here in Poole, but only when you brave the world outside, put a motor on the stand and get the camera out. Today was the day when I was going to spend 'half an hour' photographing a few motors for this year's Ibsley show, when we'll be offering the 'British Seagull Field Guide' as a bit of an experiment.
(Plug time - Charles's 'British Seagull Field Guide' is an experimental booklet that aims to answer the first question asked by most - ie what is it? It's not actually on sale, if it was I'd have asked John before plugging it, but that's the general idea...)
Half hour, yeah right. By the time you've actually found a non rain-bearing cloud (because the sun is so low the light was no good at all in direct sunlight) and burrowed to the bottom of a pile of rusty, oily, filthy motors to get to the one you want, freed off the clamp thumbscrews to get the thing secure on the stand, freed off the turning tension and wiped the motor over with an rag dampened with kerosene/paraffin to make it presentable as a photo model, then the cloud is going, and, dammit, you're so absolutely caked in solvent laden muck you really must go and wash your hands lest it gets all over the camera. I have got through so much soap today you wouldn't believe it.
And now I'm all packed up. I forgot the Model 110. Dammit. Will anyone recognise the model 75 I'm using instead? You betcha, someone will want to know why the gearshift is wrong. And that's right the model 110 is right at the back way over there....
But the SNP isn't at the back, it's on the bench.
But I can tell you that the exhausts for my SNP (Long), my SDP (Long) and even my barge pusher, are all 23 3/8 inches. There may be a small differences, because the silencers, in the 40's at any rate, were measured by hand, with the young lad holding the brass tube stock out in the road, another man holding up the traffic, the tube poking through a hole in the side of the building, and a man inside working the cutter. They would do this at times when the traffic was judged to be least, in case they upset the motorists.
This was Britain, victorious in war, practising how to be a high tech nation. I often mentally picture the engineers when we actually had a space industry ( We did actually launch a satellite once, all on our own. And it worked!) hand filing and hacksawing away at the hardware like they were lovingly crafting a Victorian Sporting gun. Bet the thing was hand engraved with Rose & Scroll patterns...
(Barge pushers derive their extra length because of the huge prop, and the big skeg to protect it)
The matching driveshaft tube is 26 1/8 inches. I've only measured the one from the SN, 'coz the rest are assembled, but I'm pretty confident that's your measurement. To derive the shaft length itself from this won't be a problem for you.
Remember there's plenty of leeway built into these dimensions. This was not a high precision product.
I now really start to like these engines. Funny enough they start at minus 5 C minus centigrades whenever you want, whatever your wife says.
But funny enough nowone asks is it winter or summer anymore, not even at Eastern
Kind regards
Sten
Sten
Noise...
Yes they do actually sound a little different. 'Spose that's why they make trumpets and the like out of brass rather than ali. There is a bit of a ring to the brass ones.
Casing differences. Yes the longer ones are different, but the earlier ones are the same. Sadly I don't know exactly when the change occurred. You are of course correct the depth adjusters won't fit the thicker casings - but even so BS didn't want people using depth adjusters on longer shafted 102s because they reckoned it would put too much strain on the bracket. Can't see it myself.
Yes they do actually sound a little different. 'Spose that's why they make trumpets and the like out of brass rather than ali. There is a bit of a ring to the brass ones.
Casing differences. Yes the longer ones are different, but the earlier ones are the same. Sadly I don't know exactly when the change occurred. You are of course correct the depth adjusters won't fit the thicker casings - but even so BS didn't want people using depth adjusters on longer shafted 102s because they reckoned it would put too much strain on the bracket. Can't see it myself.